Petty's Purist LotR Edits

Well, I know I am a little behind, but I watched through the TT edit last night so here goes with my thoughts.

I like opening with the pursuit and can see how that will fit well with watching as a complete 9 hr film. I also really enjoyed the intercutting between Merry, Pippin and the orcs and the chasing trio, it gave the whole thing an immediacy that can be missing if it is too intercut with Frodo and Sam. It was particularly effective when Aragorn was tracking the hobbit movements from the Orc/Rohirrim battle to the respective meetings of the groups.

I also liked the way the Emyn Muil section felt with all the action together, you really get a sense of Frodo and Sam being lost and unable to find their way out, it also makes better sense of Gollums development through this part.

I have to say well done on the use of the extended material and recutting to make better sense of a number of stories, in particular Eowyns story makes far more sense, is truer to the book and sets up the despair of ROTK far better. Equally the slight reordering and cutting with Treebeard gives a greater sense of the feel and length of time of the entmoot. (and the Gondor brothers scenes help make their stories clearer in the way you have used them)

I already knew from your comments that you had removed the wargs and elves from the Helms Deep section and was slightly anxious to see how the battle would run as in my memory there was little without the elves in. The journey to Helms Deep now I truely a retreat and allows time for characters to breathe (neat cut to get Aragorn back too! I might have been tempted to leave the dramatic entrance through the doors out too!) The battle works well and if I didn't know who was meant to be elves I wouldn't know, there is also no lack of action and drama (although I personally love the Gimli having to be tossed over to the causeway moment!). The closer cutting with the ents at Isengard also works well and builds in the idea of everyone what every their race being brought into the conflict which is distinctly missing from the films as released (The idea of Saurons power is diminished too, one of the indeliable images from the books for me is the way in which Sauron is engaging in battle right across the breadth of middle earth on one front and against all peoples!)

It hadn't really occured to me how far PJ had deviated from the book cut off point till this point in your edit, so much so that I went back and checked the book to see exactly where the break was! Personally I like the resolution of the battles in this film and it adds to the feel that this is only a building tide of conflict, not an end to conflict in it's own right.

So onto the omissions. It is once again to your credit that I only realised what was missing when I saw the Merry and Pippin long shot. (and the Faramir bits work, I realised when watching this that the fact they are in ithilin is never really referenced, if you didn't know the books you wouldn't know so the sewer scene works fine!)

My only thought is that although as a fan of the book the films work well for me I have to say I am wondering if pacing may be a problem for an audience new to the story. The less intercut threads give the characters time to breath and develop, but I'm not sure you would keep it all in your head if you didn't know the story - a bit of a moot point I know as this is a project from a book readers perspective. It also shows how much was actually there and how a different cut gives a completely different feel (I feel some sympathy for those actors who end up in really duff films now, who when questioned say it looked really good in script form!)

Side point - your right that not having the elvish subtitles does not detract from those scenes at all, in many ways they are more potent.

Final thought is once again thankyou for allowing me access. I have never thought too much about the films or what themes / messages I see in these books, I am really enjoying this journey of discovering what I think through these discussions. (I know that sounds bit pompous, it's not meant to be!

Oh -- missed one thing

Dead Marshes - liked the darkening effect, although it was a little too dark, became difficult to see what was happening!

Thanks once again for taking the time and for your comments.

"I am wondering if pacing may be a problem for an audience new to the story. The less intercut threads give the characters time to breath and develop, but I'm not sure you would keep it all in your head if you didn't know the story"- Kafria

This has been a concern but I think overall modern cinema treats all of its audience with a degree of contempt and assumes they are incapable of remembering anything for more than 2 seconds. Perhaps because I grew up watching cold war thrillers with my dad which were often not only hideously complex but often deliberately confused the viewer as a plot device I tend to believe people are more capable than PJ seems to. The amount of times PJ 'reminds' the viewer of earlier things is ridiculous- a pet hate from these films, and a bit guaranteed to set of the crabbit meter is the bit where Merry and Pippin are escaping from the orcs into Fangorn and get caught by the orc and he grabs Pippin by the belt. PJ has actually dubbed onto it Merry shouting, "The belt" just so viewers can go 'oh that's how the belt got in the fire that Gimli found 2 seconds ago'. And then there's Faramir pointing out the entire plot on a map (seems in PJ's films there's a ME mapmaker as everyone has the same map!) and of course there is the Elrond/Galadriel telepathic heres the plot so far bit! And a host of other bits, too numerous to mention. I'm crabbit just thinking about this, what the hell was my point? Oh yeah, I prefer to assume the audience has a brain and an attention span. Pacing I worry more about than I do people remembering what happened.

"liked the darkening effect, although it was a little too dark, became difficult to see what was happening!"- Kafria

Yes, you are quite right, I overdid it. The mega edit its a different filter- I've what I call my 'eye of Sauron filter' it basically makes everything a bit darker and a bit redder and is meant to represent Sauron's will. So its used in Mordor and I use it in the Osgiliath fight and then for the Pelennor, its gone when the battles won and returns when Aragorn goes to the Black Gate (the effect is also broken by the light of the Palantir and by Gandalf when he goes out to rescue Faramir). If I get time later I will up a few minutes (the Gandalf bit) so people can see the effect in action!

I cannot thank you and Ringrotten enough, your comments have been invaluable in fine tuning.

ps just thought I'd mention in the megaedit theres no intercutting, the Frodo Sam stuff is as in the book , seperate. In TT as a standalone film I think it has to be intercut, but in the megaedit, as its one huge film I thought it should more like the book in structure, so if you are in the mood for the Frodo story you can watch it without interruption. I also find it means the viewer (me anyway!) is more emotionally involved with the characters and their plight when you don't keep jumping back and forth between strands.

Uploaded the filter effect to the skydrive for your perusal.
I feel it might require a bit of justifying. Of all the changes I've made I suspect its the one some will hate. So I should perhaps explain my thinking.
It occurred to me that one of the main problems with adapting LotR is getting the sense of Sauron. With no on screen bad guy (or on page one for that matter) the films struggle- PJ's solution was to fill the screen with temporary bad guys- first he uses Saruman for the role and when he is gone he invents Gothmog and for the Pelennor its the Witch-King. So concerned with this problem was he that they originally had the ending as Sauron coming out to face Aragorn at the end, first as a shining beautiful figure then as, well Illuvator knows what its PJ, but it does show the worry over the problem.
Tolkien of course doesn't need an on page bad guy. The sense of the will of Sauron and of his presence slowly creeping out from Mordor till it covers the world pervades the book. But how do you do that in film? Hence the filter.
I think some people will find it looks artificial, but that's the point, it should be an unnatural looking light and hopefully that is made clear by the fact that Gandalfs light and the phial of Galadriel can break it.
Another complaint I might expect is that it spoils the look of a scene, a fair point as the look of the films is one of the few things PJ got spot on. But I think the benefit of it, the subliminal effect of Saurons will being wherever his eye is focused more than makes up for it. And the Pelennor for me always looked like it was taking place on a nice sunny day with some clouds round the edges. Which is ridiculous as not once, but twice PJ makes a big deal of the growing darkness spreading to Minas Tirith in conversations between Gandalf and Pippin.

Oh, one last thing, the effect might seem stronger watching this clip than the same scene might when seen in context as the filter will already have been 'on' during the Osgiliath attack and the Black Gate scenes with Frodo so the viewers eye will be used to it by then.

Almost expected something to set off my own crabbit meter there! You mustn't scare me so Actually, I didn't really see a very big difference. It was redder, I noticed that, but nothing to be annoyed with, and it certainly didn't ruin the scene as you said it might do. Not sure whether I prefer the darker or the redder filter, though I really liked the darker filter, but that wouldn't work as well in battle scenes I guess. The red one would be better for that. Go with the red one, I like the idea of an effect to show Sauron's will

Oooo!

I like that!

Didn't seem artificial to me and it only became obvious after the light of Gandalf cleared it. I can see how it would grow and become slightly oppresive in the viewers mind as you go through the film too!

Phew- glad it didnt set off a crabbit alarm for either of you. I was more worried about it because making something darker is one thing adding a whole new lighting to it is another. But as soon as I tried it it felt like the right thing to do, so glad you agree.
You are right Ringdrotten about the darker filter not working in battle, not becasue you can't see but becasue the sky is so bright and in shot so often it just doesn't work, you just lose details, the red filter though makes it a little darker but tints everything red which works better.

Kafria you may want to hold off watching RotK and just get the megaedit, its a more finely tuned version (no major changes from the one Ringdrotten watched besides the filter though and a few tweaks, just tidier round the edges). I'm reckoning four to five days before its finished at turned into a dvd with menus etc.

ps. I took the Aragorn dramatic entrance out as suggested and you were right, much better. Aragorn sees the army, turns and rides away cut to Theoden "A great host you say". Good catch.

And Ringdrotten, a bit of tiny editing, some reframing of a few shots and except long shots no more wounded Aragorn!

Edit:

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
ps. I took the Aragorn dramatic entrance out as suggested and you were right, much better. Aragorn sees the army, turns and rides away cut to Theoden "A great host you say". Good catch.

Liking the sound of that! This megaedit keeps sounding better and better

Good news! The editing bit of the megaedit is complete! Now I need to start work on the DVD menus. But getting there.

I confess to not having viewed your edits Mr Tyrant (watching the movies came to annoy me too much ), but I'm thinking I should do so in the short term future. Don't suppose you might send me FotR again? I think I had one of your older edits.

Nice to see you back Odo. Hold fast my friend- a copy of the megaedit will be winging its way around the globe to any who wish it. I wouldn't see the Banks clan go without.

While not altogether respectable, and certainly crabbity, Mr Tyrant, you do have a kind heart!

I'm sure you'll love them, Odo, they're all very good

I have no doubt they'll be improvements on the originals. My Tyrant is quite sensible (in one or two ways).

I'd love to watch them, but would an old computer be able to download them I wonder? I couldn't download it on my Dad's laptop (work and stuff) so I'd have to do it on an old windows xp computer which is on it's last legs!

Any PC should be able to download it, I think. It depends more on the speed of your internet.

You shouldnt have a problem downloading them if your internet speed is ok. If you can watch Iplayer or anything thats streaming like that your download speed will be fine.
I cant remember offhand if I gave you access to the skydrive its on- if I did you will have got an email with the link somewhere, if not pm me and I'll send it. Anyone else that wants a watch just pm me too.

Running time for megaedit is 8hrs 18minutes. But don't worry will have chapters and scene select. Think I will have the option to play all, or go to the individual books. Fell book 1 book 2 etc with chapters in each. What do you think?

Wha-??????

8????????????????????????????????????????????????????

8 hours??????????????????????????????????????????????



Crikey! What have you jammed in there, a day's worth of ads???

Sounds good, Petty, makes it easier to watch them separately

"8 hours??????????????????????????????????????????????"- Squach

Look on the brightside thats 4 hours less than watching PJ's cuts back to back!

I'll send a pm when I get my broadband back up and running- I'm using a neighbours unsecured wi-fi at mo, not a very reliable connection!

Pettytyrant101 wrote:"8 hours??????????????????????????????????????????????"- Squach

Look on the brightside thats 4 hours less than watching PJ's cuts back to back!

Or putting up with a Mum watching all 3 back to back!!!

Im not sure it will be a DVD any more!! I was going to make it a dvd because I thought the file size would be too large for uploading and downloading. But by some miracle of technology the finished divx file is only 3.8 gig.
What I might do instead is break it into small chunks with winrar and then when the bits have all been downloaded it will unzip it all back into one file.

Right good news and bad news.
Bad news first, get it out the way. Its not going to be a dvd, however it is as I type being uploaded to the skyydrive, however it is in, ummm, 81 parts! But dont panic, its not as horrible as it sounds, because its the skydrive there no waiting btween files and, I think, you can download more than one at once, and they are all about 48meg, so shouldn't take long.
Now to use the files you will need winrar- if you don't have it its free and can be found with a quick search. (just download and run it and follow the instructions to install).
VERY IMPORTANT BIT- you need to download ALL the bits before you can watch any of it. So best to download them all into a folder on your desktop, or wherever you like. Once you have them all just right click on the first one and you will have the option to 'extract here'. simply select that and it will extract all the bits for you and stick it all back together into one file ready to watch.
Will probably be a few hours, if I stay awake, before they are all uploaded- uploading sadly is far, far slower than downloading.

edit- the previous statement may have been optimistic- I hate uploading!!!!- its so slow. On part 11 and plodding on. Will let you know when it s done but could be tomorrow, at best.