Re: News from the set [2]

by Elthir Thu May 31, 2012 4:07 pm

Oracle? Hmm, but I could never outdo Hen Wen Very Happy

By the way the person (one 'Darkstone' I think) didn't actually mention Kalevala by name, but I assumed. He or she appears to be defending the bird droppings as well...

Norse mythology is full of silly and ridiculous draft animals. Freya rode into battle in a wagon pulled by two kitty cats. (Big kitty cats, but kitty cats nonetheless.) Thor drove into battle behind two goats. Frey rode a boar!

Here's "Freya", a painting by N.J.O. Blommer (1852). These are big Norweigan Forest Cats, now almost bred out of existence by interbreeding with domestic cats.

[picture not included here]

Pagans did and still today hook up cats to a wagon with a small statue of Freya and follow it around for a few days. They set up a feast whenever and wherever the cats stop and party until the cats decide to move on.

BTW, Thor had a few adventures while having a giant's metal weapon point broke off in the middle of his forehead.

Also, Odin went around with a couple of ravens, Huginn and Muninn (Thought and Memory), riding around on his shoulders. As a result, his shoulders were liberally splattered with "Mistletoe", literally "branch dung", aka, "bird poop". Keep that translation in mind next time someone asks you to close your eyes so they can kiss you under the mistletoe.

Finally, hares pulling sledges is mentioned in Tolkien's beloved Finnish myths.

Those silly ancient Northern Europeans! Next thing you know Jackson will be copying ridiculous names out of The Elder Edda for the films!!

I note the last line here... is Tolkien borrowing names from Old Norse equivalent?

by Pettytyrant101 Thu May 31, 2012 4:18 pm

The point here is one of adaptation- Tolkien did not include a rabbit pulled sled or birds nesting under Radagasts hat- PJ has choosen to add these things in without a basis in the source text. Its a stretch and a half to justify it by saying some similar things can be found in the myths and legends of a people Tolkien happened to have a professional and private interest in. For all we know he didnt like those bits and thats why he was not inspired to use them in his own work.

by Eldorion Thu May 31, 2012 4:33 pm

I thought it was generally agreed upon that Tolkien took the names of the Dwarves from Norse mythology, but I don't see why that means that Jackson should go take other mythological elements that have nothing to do with the book. This Darkstone person seems to be operating under the assumption that if something was included in ancient mythology then it can't be goofy or dumb. That attitude frankly boggles the mind since, no matter what inspirations Tolkien had, his legendarium is its own entity. Not to mention that, well, there's a lot of goofy shit in mythology.

by Mrs Figg Thu May 31, 2012 4:33 pm

Tolkien was inspired by Norse myths but he made them his own, he wove them into something distinctly his, axes in heads are too unsubtle for Tolkien.

by Elthir Thu May 31, 2012 7:34 pm

Well answered in my opinion (I think no one really took Darkstone to great task over at TORN, and I haven't joined up there just to do so). Possibly I might be tagged a picky purist if I preferred Earendil to Aurvandill's frozen toe.

But when Thor knew that, and thought that there was hope that the hone might be removed, he desired to reward Gróa for her leech-craft and make her glad, and told her these things: that he had waded from the north over Icy Stream and had borne Aurvandill in a basket on his back from the north out of Jötunheim. And he added for a token, that one of Aurvandill's toes had stuck out of the basket, and became frozen; wherefore Thor broke it off and cast it up into the heavens, and made thereof the star called Aurvandill's Toe.

Prose Edda

by Elthir Thu May 31, 2012 7:53 pm

Eldorion wrote: 'I thought it was generally agreed upon that Tolkien took the names of the Dwarves from Norse mythology, but... '

I just read my last sentence above Eldorion, and I should have written it better: I meant that the fact that Tolkien did borrow certain names from the Norse 'Dwarf-list' hardly means that JRRT would likewise be fine with Bifur's axe (simply because there was a piece of hone in the head of a thunder god, and one can very generally say Tolkien was a fan of Norse Mythology).

I realized I might seem to be asking there, the way I poorly worded it in question form.

by Eldorion Thu May 31, 2012 11:10 pm

I think I understand what you mean now, and I believe we're on the same page. Smile

by David H Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:55 pm

Elthir wrote:
By the way the person (one 'Darkstone' I think) didn't actually mention Kalevala by name, but I assumed. He or she appears to be defending the bird droppings as well...

Finally, hares pulling sledges is mentioned in Tolkien's beloved Finnish myths.

Here's the best match I've found so far. It's not a bad fable, but it's hard to believe it was an influence of PJ at all, regardless of how inappropriate. Suspect

http://zeluna.net/finnish-fairy-tales-animalstakeabite.html

by Elthir Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:38 am

Darkstone has replied (it seems someone else had asked already), and referred to...

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/lfb/cr/crfb23.htm

The fuller reply from Darkstone reads...

I recall one Finnish fairy tale features a hare pulling a sled carrying a dead hunter which she occasionally dines upon.

In 1903 the tale was retold by famed Scots folklorist Andrew Lang as The Six Hungry Beasts in his Crimson Fairy Book.

In 1927 the University of St. Andrews initiated the Andrew Lang Lecture series, which continues to this day.

On March 8, 1939, the most famous and influential Andrew Lang lecture of all was delivered: “On Fairy-Stories”, by JRR Tolkien.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:01 am

Ah well now its clear- a man who put a fable with a hare pulled sled in it in his book of collected stories, and who later is honoured with a University Lecture named after him at which, 30 odd years later Tolken is asked to speak = Tolkien meant to put the hare pulled sled in all along. Obvious! Mad

by Eldorion Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:26 am

Logic!

by David H Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:46 pm

And a ladle used as a weapon too. Maybe this is the virus that infected "the Hobbit" after all. I wonder if that means the bunnies will be eating Radegast then....

by RA Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:03 pm

Are those the type of mental acrobatics people have to do to justify Jackson's most senseless changes?

by Elthir Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:23 pm

I also asked Darkstone if he/she had any more examples (as implied), but more specifically if there were any in which hares were hitched to sleds to convey a rider, or even for some sort of ritual; and I told him/her that I checked parts of the Finnish Kalevala but so far had only found a number of references to coursers.

Arguably tenuous Tolkien connections aside, I expected a Finnish god/hero/heroine/fairy-being-of-some-sort to be riding in a sledge hitched to rabbits -- which would mean the Rider purposely used hares or rabbits for this purpose -- not a bunch of talking beasties, hare included, who tried to pull a sled with a dead guy on it.

Anyway, I won't bother you fine forumshire-folk further with any potential Darkstonian replies. I'm not sure I'm going to be a regular (at TORN)... although I do see a thread on Galadriel I might post in... and interestingly their threads do not 'bump' when responded to.

by Eldorion Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:45 pm

There are a lot of cool and knowledgeable people on TORn, but unfortunately they are outnumbered by fanboys (unfortunately, "go-to" sites like TORn attract them like flies) and just plain weirdos. Razz

And yeah, their forum software is pretty weird. I think they modded it to resemble late-'90s era text-based boards of the sort that TORn when it was first started (in the late '90s...).

by Ringdrotten Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:07 pm

"And yeah, their forum software is pretty weird" - Eldo

I'd say crappy was closer to the truth Nod

by David H Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:44 am

Elthir wrote:

Anyway, I won't bother you fine forumshire-folk further with any potential Darkstonian replies.

Personally I think they're rather entertaining, and I thank you for posting them. They sent me off on some interesting searches. You can learn something from everybody. Smile

BTW did anybody point out to Darkstone that a hone is a large rock rather than a pointy metal weapon.

Thor had a few adventures while having a giant's metal weapon point broke off in the middle of his forehead.

by Ally Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:59 pm

Ringdrotten wrote:"And yeah, their forum software is pretty weird" - Eldo

I'd say crappy was closer to the truth

It is actually crap. Utter crap. The kind of person who prefers that complex threaded post format is someone who prefers PJ's LOTR to Tolkien's... (Hang on, what did I just say? Rolling Eyes