Faramir and other changes
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Re: Faramir and other changes
"sent back to Middle-earth as a companion to Gandalf"
Given that it seems odd he appears only at the Ford. If his role was a companion to Gandalf he might be expected to have helped out a bit more.
Given that it seems odd he appears only at the Ford. If his role was a companion to Gandalf he might be expected to have helped out a bit more.
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Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
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Re: Faramir and other changes
It's also said that in Valinor Glorfindel had probably become a friend and follower of Olorin. The passage with 'companion' reads:
(the first page is missing, and the second page begins): '... as guards or assistants. An Elf who had once known Middle-earth and had fought in the long wars against Melkor would be an eminently suitable companion for Gandalf. We could then reasonably suppose that Glorfindel (possibly as one of a small party, more probably as a sole companion) landed with Gandalf-Olorin about Third Age 1000.'
The idea was superseded in any case, although in the second essay Glorfindel is still said to have become a follower and friend of Olorin. Another note indicates that Tolkien was willing to add description about Glorfindel (I'm not sure where: in some theoretical new edition, or some new publication I guess) -- something to help flesh out the new idea of his arriving to help Gil-galad and Elrond.
So possibly he intended to do something similar had the first idea stuck.
(the first page is missing, and the second page begins): '... as guards or assistants. An Elf who had once known Middle-earth and had fought in the long wars against Melkor would be an eminently suitable companion for Gandalf. We could then reasonably suppose that Glorfindel (possibly as one of a small party, more probably as a sole companion) landed with Gandalf-Olorin about Third Age 1000.'
The idea was superseded in any case, although in the second essay Glorfindel is still said to have become a follower and friend of Olorin. Another note indicates that Tolkien was willing to add description about Glorfindel (I'm not sure where: in some theoretical new edition, or some new publication I guess) -- something to help flesh out the new idea of his arriving to help Gil-galad and Elrond.
So possibly he intended to do something similar had the first idea stuck.
Elthir- Sharrasi's prentice
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Re: Faramir and other changes
I had a look in the Tolkien companion it lists Glorfindel as follows;
"One of the Noldor who had returned to Middle- Earth in Exile during the Elder Days. Of the House of Finarphir, leader of the Host of Rivendell and one of Elrond's chief councellors. He was responsible for the defence of Rivendell during the years while Arthedain declined and he led a force to the Battle Of Fornost, when his timely appearance completed the rout of Angmar. He discouraged pursuit of the Witch-King, foretelling that the doom of the Witch-King lay in the future when it would not be dealt 'by the hand of man.' These words were long remembered."
"One of the Noldor who had returned to Middle- Earth in Exile during the Elder Days. Of the House of Finarphir, leader of the Host of Rivendell and one of Elrond's chief councellors. He was responsible for the defence of Rivendell during the years while Arthedain declined and he led a force to the Battle Of Fornost, when his timely appearance completed the rout of Angmar. He discouraged pursuit of the Witch-King, foretelling that the doom of the Witch-King lay in the future when it would not be dealt 'by the hand of man.' These words were long remembered."
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Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
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Re: Faramir and other changes
So how can this be the same Glorfindel if he was killed by that Balrog in his first "life"? How does that work? Unless I'm not understading this correctly...
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Tinuviel- Finest Nose
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Re: Faramir and other changes
Tinuviel wrote: So how can this be the same Glorfindel if he was killed by that Balrog in his first "life"? How does that work? Unless I'm not understading this correctly...
Glorfindel died but was incarnated again by the Valar and sent back to Middle-earth. Some form of reincarnation for the Elves existed as far back as Tolkien's early tales (The Book of Lost Tales), so this was not a new or unusual concept; the difficulty with Glorfindel was that he was a Noldorin Exile and not allowed back in Valinor -- but Tolkien explained why he (in particular) was allowed, and he became once again an incarnate being -- rehoused in a new but identical hroa (hroa roughly translates as 'body').
Some Companions might only incorporate what Tolkien himself published, or what Tolkien published plus the constructed Silmarillion, and if so will not provide the conclusion from JRRT's two late texts, in which he decides that there was only one Glorfindel.
Elthir- Sharrasi's prentice
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Re: Faramir and other changes
Come awards season in Forumshire I rather think Eldo might have some proper competition for the Lore Master award! Should be good.
I find the companion I have by J.E. A. Tyler to be very useful as a start point for research but as, like me its geting on (published in 1976) its not quite up to date with later released papers and works of Tolkien.
![Very Happy](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_biggrin.png)
I find the companion I have by J.E. A. Tyler to be very useful as a start point for research but as, like me its geting on (published in 1976) its not quite up to date with later released papers and works of Tolkien.
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Re: Faramir and other changes
Ah, that explains the missing Gondolin parts I guess. I note Tyler's 'of the house of (ultimately) Finarfin' part, probably because of Glorfindel's golden hair, even though his house isn't actually stated (the closest we get is some sort of kinship with Turgon).
I have Robert Foster's early Companion, also published before the 1977 Silmarillion came out. One thing I like about these early books is that they don't get muddled up with all the later 'unpublished' (by JRRT) stuff, even if the really early companions might get some things 'wrong' compared to what JRRT said elsewhere, or later.
I love delving into the unpublished works, but in some cases, or sometimes, I think it's good to strip it away as well. The good thing about Glorfindel is that there is only ever one of him when looking at what Tolkien published (The Lord of the Rings), and only one again when looking at what he didn't publish (himself), meaning the Silmarillion, and hitting public bookshelves much later, the Glorfindel essays.
It works out somewhat neatly
I have Robert Foster's early Companion, also published before the 1977 Silmarillion came out. One thing I like about these early books is that they don't get muddled up with all the later 'unpublished' (by JRRT) stuff, even if the really early companions might get some things 'wrong' compared to what JRRT said elsewhere, or later.
I love delving into the unpublished works, but in some cases, or sometimes, I think it's good to strip it away as well. The good thing about Glorfindel is that there is only ever one of him when looking at what Tolkien published (The Lord of the Rings), and only one again when looking at what he didn't publish (himself), meaning the Silmarillion, and hitting public bookshelves much later, the Glorfindel essays.
It works out somewhat neatly
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Elthir- Sharrasi's prentice
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Re: Faramir and other changes
Alright, that makes more sense. But how does one exactly kill a Balrog? Or who can kill one? Becasue it seems that only the most powerful beings can kill them, but if Glorfindel was just an elf....?
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Tinuviel- Finest Nose
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Re: Faramir and other changes
"With his last failing senses Frodo heard cries, and it seemed to him that he saw, beyond the Riders that hestitated on the shore, a shining figure of white light...." -Flight to the Ford
"'And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against the Seen and Unseen they have great power.'
'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'
'Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes.' - Many Meetings
Basically Tin he's just really, really cool!
PJ should never have left him out nor the scene where he comes as a shining light to drive the remaining Nazgul into the river. I hate they took that idea and gave it to Arwen to make her all shiny instead.
"'And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against the Seen and Unseen they have great power.'
'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'
'Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes.' - Many Meetings
Basically Tin he's just really, really cool!
![Cool](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_cool.gif)
PJ should never have left him out nor the scene where he comes as a shining light to drive the remaining Nazgul into the river. I hate they took that idea and gave it to Arwen to make her all shiny instead.
![Evil or Very Mad](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_evil.gif)
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Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
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Re: Faramir and other changes
Agreed, Glorfindel is such a great character. Tolkien's description of him leaves you in awe, and he's not even in the film
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Ringdrotten- Mrs Bear Grylls
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Re: Faramir and other changes
Late in life JRRT noted that the duel with Glorfindel and the demon may need revision. I find this a somewhat humorous statement, because the only detailed account of this battle was written very early, well before Balrogs were Maiar or had cloaks of shadow for instance (avoiding the 'wing' issue here).
Back in the (only detailed version of the) Fall of Gondolin, if I recall correctly Glorfindel sliced an arm and stabbed the demon (it was twice Glorfindel's height), and both fell off a cliff to their deaths, the Balrog dragging Glorfindel with him by his golden hair. More Balrogs were killed in this early version, some by Tuor I think.
Tolkien never got around to an updated version of Glorfindel's duel however, nor Ecthelion's, although we can see evidence in texts written after The Lord of the Rings that he at least still imagined these Elves slaying Balrogs in any case.
I've seen as least one person raise the possibility that Glorfindel was going to fight a demon of some kind, but not necessarily a Balrog! This suggestion was based on the admittedly somewhat odd revision of the word Balrog to 'demon' in a late text (where Glorfindel's foe is consistently referred to as a demon). By this point Tolkien had imagined the orc-formed Maiar, which might be more formidable than Orcs but lesser than Balrogs. I'm not sure the revision from Balrog to 'demon', however curious, meant that JRRT was abandoning such a long held concept! but in any case the option was open to him if he thought Balrogs had become too powerful...
... but if Pippin can slay a mighty torog for instance
And as Pettytyrant noted already, when we have mighty Elves that had lived in Aman perhaps even demons of might might not take victory for granted.
Back in the (only detailed version of the) Fall of Gondolin, if I recall correctly Glorfindel sliced an arm and stabbed the demon (it was twice Glorfindel's height), and both fell off a cliff to their deaths, the Balrog dragging Glorfindel with him by his golden hair. More Balrogs were killed in this early version, some by Tuor I think.
Tolkien never got around to an updated version of Glorfindel's duel however, nor Ecthelion's, although we can see evidence in texts written after The Lord of the Rings that he at least still imagined these Elves slaying Balrogs in any case.
I've seen as least one person raise the possibility that Glorfindel was going to fight a demon of some kind, but not necessarily a Balrog! This suggestion was based on the admittedly somewhat odd revision of the word Balrog to 'demon' in a late text (where Glorfindel's foe is consistently referred to as a demon). By this point Tolkien had imagined the orc-formed Maiar, which might be more formidable than Orcs but lesser than Balrogs. I'm not sure the revision from Balrog to 'demon', however curious, meant that JRRT was abandoning such a long held concept! but in any case the option was open to him if he thought Balrogs had become too powerful...
... but if Pippin can slay a mighty torog for instance
![Wink](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_wink.gif)
And as Pettytyrant noted already, when we have mighty Elves that had lived in Aman perhaps even demons of might might not take victory for granted.
Elthir- Sharrasi's prentice
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Re: Faramir and other changes
"or had cloaks of shadow for instance (avoiding the 'wing' issue here)."- Elthir
Never saw the argument there- they have wings of shadow- perfect for intimidating your enemy, impression your orc followers and looking cool in front of the female Balrogs but absoutely pants if you're plunged into an abyss by a cocky old wizard (shadows having such a rubbish wind resistance!)
Never saw the argument there- they have wings of shadow- perfect for intimidating your enemy, impression your orc followers and looking cool in front of the female Balrogs but absoutely pants if you're plunged into an abyss by a cocky old wizard (shadows having such a rubbish wind resistance!)
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Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
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Re: Faramir and other changes
Pettytyrant101 wrote: female Balrogs
The kind that starts to look nice after a few pints of this and a couple of shots of that?
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Re: Faramir and other changes
I think even I would have to drink an unpresidented quantity of buckie before I'd saunter over to a female balrog and her ask what she's having! Although there can be something to be said for a lady with a whip!
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Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
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Re: Faramir and other changes
Where there's a whip there's a way ![Wink](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_wink.gif)
![Wink](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_wink.gif)
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Re: Faramir and other changes
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Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
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Re: Faramir and other changes
There must be something wrong with the water in Forumshire these days.. Not sure where these ideas are coming from
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Ringdrotten- Mrs Bear Grylls
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Re: Faramir and other changes
"There must be something wrong with the water in Forumshire these days"
Yeah mines got no buckie in it. Definetly something wrong.
Yeah mines got no buckie in it. Definetly something wrong.
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Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
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Re: Faramir and other changes
So that's why I haven't been able to think straight recently!
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Ringdrotten- Mrs Bear Grylls
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Re: Faramir and other changes
It'll be Admins fault. Him or PJ its always one or the other.
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https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
the crabbit will suffer neither sleight of hand nor half-truths. - Forest
Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
- Posts : 46773
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 52
Location : Scotshobbitland
Re: Faramir and other changes
It feels good to have someone to blame
![Smile](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_smile.gif)
_________________
“The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want for nothing. He makes me lie down in the green pastures. He greases up my head with oil. He gives me kung-fu in the face of my enemies. Amen”. - Tom Cullen
![Faramir and other changes - Page 3 Man-in-black](https://thelissachronicles.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/man-in-black.jpg?w=484&h=332)
Ringdrotten- Mrs Bear Grylls
- Posts : 4607
Join date : 2011-02-13
Re: Faramir and other changes
![Rolling Eyes](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif)
Ok, so Glorfindel is really cool. I think I'm going to go reread the bit with him in FOTR now
![Smile](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_smile.gif)
_________________
"I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author." -JRRT
![Faramir and other changes - Page 3 Tumblr_ndsrspapRL1qlqsnio3_500](https://33.media.tumblr.com/180826ead35802c931636879fcc1ff3d/tumblr_ndsrspapRL1qlqsnio3_500.gif)
Tinuviel- Finest Nose
- Posts : 1937
Join date : 2011-02-15
Age : 29
Re: Faramir and other changes
Come on you guys, Elthir here is trying to have a respectable, serious Lore thread and you're talking about sex with Balrogs.
What would Odo and the Respectabilians say?
![Laughing](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_lol.gif)
![Razz](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_razz.gif)
Re: Faramir and other changes
In an attempt to bring this back on topic after Ringdrottens disgraceful devation (Shame on you Ringdrotten!
) what is 'torog' Elthir? "powerful demon"?
I always thought of Balrogs as demons, demons of Melkor. Fire spirits he turned to evil.
![Wink](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_wink.gif)
I always thought of Balrogs as demons, demons of Melkor. Fire spirits he turned to evil.
_________________
Pure Publications, The Tower of Lore and the Former Admin's Office are Reasonably Proud to Present-
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
the crabbit will suffer neither sleight of hand nor half-truths. - Forest
Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
- Posts : 46773
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 52
Location : Scotshobbitland
Re: Faramir and other changes
I am ashamed of myself
Please, do carry on with the respectable discussions!
![Embarassed](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_redface.gif)
_________________
“The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want for nothing. He makes me lie down in the green pastures. He greases up my head with oil. He gives me kung-fu in the face of my enemies. Amen”. - Tom Cullen
![Faramir and other changes - Page 3 Man-in-black](https://thelissachronicles.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/man-in-black.jpg?w=484&h=332)
Ringdrotten- Mrs Bear Grylls
- Posts : 4607
Join date : 2011-02-13
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