Bakshi v PJ A Contest of Scripts

Mrs Figg wrote:looks like Petty already did it.  

Eldorion wrote:inb4 Petty tries to argue that the Russian Hobbit is superior to PJ's version.

Those subtitles are amazing though.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Gandalf then asks Frodo to take out the Ring and he holds it out on its chain. Prompting Elrond to ask what they can do with it. And concluding they have to destroy it in Mount Doom. A proposal loudly argued against by Boromir. Once more Bakshi's use of the proper dialogue works well here, especially as he keeps Bilbo's earnest, but amusing, “Its plain enough what you are pointing at. Bilbo the silly hobbit started this affair and Bilbo better finish it, or himself. When ought I to start?”

Neither version includes the wargs and Bakshi's solution is to conclude the scene by having Frodo say “I do not wish to go. But I will go, if Gandalf advises it.” (A variation on the line he uses in the book where he says he does not wish to go but nor does he wish to gainsay the advice of Gandalf, and they should wait till morning- then they hear the wargs.) It is a satisfying enough conclusion here and leaves the viewer clear on where they are going, why they are going and that not everyone is happy to be going.

halfwise wrote:PJ was just following Bakshi.  Same as before.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:PJ has a different take on the Chamber. It begins with Gimli weeping by Balin's tomb. And Gandalf reading Balin's inscription on his tomb. However this issue is already confused and having Gandalf read out “Balin Lord of Moria” whilst accurate does not help clarify things in PJ's account but muddles them further.
Gandalf then finds the book among the bones and begins to read from it. It is a shorter reading than Bakshi's and includes made up bits not from the source, “a shadow moves in the dark” for example. To heighten Gandalf's final words of “They are coming” Pippin investigating a skeleton sitting on the wells edge disturbs it and it falls in, clattering noisily to the bottom. This is the cue for the drums to star beating and the orcs to be roused. Putting the well here works well enough for sudden drama but it not as creepy as the book or Bakshi's version with the tapping echoing up out of it.
PJ's fight is considerably longer than Bakshi's. It begins well with a nice build up as the door is slowly broken through, but the troll who only makes a one foot appearance in book and Bakshi gets a starring role in PJ's account, and it is the troll which eventually stabs Frodo with a spear before finally being dispatched. Incredibly this troll fight lasts for nearly 5 minutes (and contains all sorts of implausible events, apparently a hobbit can get thrown from the top of a troll onto his back several feet away and not even suffer light bruising, let alone the smashed ribs one might expect). PJ also chooses to reveal immediately to the viewer how Frodo survived by having the mithril shirt shown and discussed.
Where Bakshi now goes straight to the dash across the Hall to the Bridge of Khazad-dum PJ opts to increase the dramatics even further by including a crumbling staircase that the Company have to negotiate by implausible jumps or throwing each other across gaps (with some more misplaced humour, “nobody tosses a dwarf”). Eventually PJ's version finds its way back to the plot and the Company are pursued by orcs towards the Bridge. In both versions the orcs withdraw at the appearance of the Balrog. Bakshi places this right at the bridge, whereas PJ puts a good bit before (right before the crumbling staircase in fact) which allows him the time to build up the Balrog in dialogue from Gandalf before revealing it (although oddly the viewer already knows what it looks like thanks to Saruman's Big Book of Monsters earlier in the film).
The encounter with the Balrog on the bridge is very similar in both accounts with the main difference that PJ's Gandalf hangs about a surprisingly long time before falling whereas Bakshi's gets pulled right in with no grabbing anything. Of the two I prefer the quick drop as in PJ's there seems ample time to rescue him. Both then follow the Company out of Moria, with Bakshi's version including the door guards, quickly slain by Aragorn and Boromir as they exit. In the Bakshi version the Company now rest in Dimrill Dale with Aragorn tending to wounds. Frodo refuses treatment because there is “no hope without Gandalf” and Aragorn retorts “Then we must do without hope- there is always vengeance.” (Possibly to non-pc a line for PJ?) Aragorn then discovers the mithril shirt and we get the explanation for how Frodo survived. It works better here where there is time for it and where it makes sense in the context of Aragorn discovering it whilst tending to wounds. Frodo then hears Gollum's padding feet and says so and Aragorn tells him nothing evil will pass into Lothlorien, this prompts Boromir to comment“That is not what we say in Gondor.

• The pitched battle with a group of orcs, instead of practically all the orcs of Moria, as if this was a D&D encounter. Sam taking an orc out with a frying pan. Frodo wussing out (again) and crying to Aragorn for help. And then the action just stopping cold when Frodo seems to get skewered. What? Did all the orcs drop dead at that exact moment (maybe I'm remembering this wrongly)? And why were the orcs outside of the Chamber so considerate as to let the Fellowship fake-mourn their fake-fallen friend?
  
• Outside the Chamber, the party flees only to end up surrounded by orcs that can, rather alarmingly, climb walls. When it looks like they're toast for sure (though I'm not sure what they're worried about; I'm sure Sam still had his mighty frying pan at hand), their bacon is saved by none other than the distant sounds of the Balrog, at the sound of which the orcs scatter like roaches. The key word is 'distant' and we can tell this because the camera plainly tells us it's so. So why they couldn't have just easily outrun the lumbering behemoth is anyone's guess. Of course, thanks to the magic of editing, the pixelated Balrog appears exactly where the script calls for it. But, generally, if I was caught in the same predicament (and without a frying pan), I would have quietly thanked the Balrog for getting rid of those orcs.
  
• I never found the Balrog scary. Impressive, yes, in a technical sense, but not really scary. Aside from the fact that it moves like it's mired in molasses, it looks like a copy of Diablo from the video game. And, of course, it doesn't even come close to the book description which, while somewhat vague, still contains a few key points.
  

Pettytyrant101 wrote:There are some paces I wish he had followed Bakshi loser, like comparing the two 'debate' scenes about the route after the failed attempt on Caradhras- PJ's is pure nonsense in which just about the least qualified person present decides what they do next, Bakshi's is an excellent revealing character piece that shows the company under duress and tetchy with each other.

Also wish PJ had followed Bakshis cues on Boromir- let his words and actions reveal his character- PJ crudely signposts that he is a bad un 3 times between Rivendell and Parth Galen.