Who came out of the War of the Ring worst (out of the goodies)?

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Post by Lancebloke Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:04 am

So, not sure if this has been raised before and I havent seen a new subject for the loremasters and loreinterestees for a while.

Question is, out of the "western" allies, who immediately came out of the war, who came out worse?

Rohan has the larger share of the books and therefore seems like it has come off worse (fall of the westfold, battle of helms deep, battle of the Pellenor, battle of the black gate, shoring up the defences of Minas Tirith from the other armies of Mordor).

We hear a lot of anecdotal info about Gondor with various historic battles (to and fro with Osgiliath, Northern incursions around Cair Andros etc, the issues in the south) and then obviously the Pellenor and black gate. There seem to have been many others.

We also hear a tiny bit about the armies of Mordor hitting the dwarves, elves and Dale.

So.... what do we think?
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Post by Mrs Figg Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:58 pm

Do you mean worse as in loss of territory, general destruction, or lives? Or is it all of those?
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Post by Pettytyrant101 Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:10 pm

{{ If you went on territory it'd probbaly, oddly enough, be hobbits. Osgiliath was screwed before it started and Minas Tirirth lost farmland on the Pellannor and the cities front gate. But that was about it. Rohan didnt lose any terrority and Edoras was fine.
We know there was a lot of fighting in the north, right up to the doors of the Lonely Mountain where Dain weilded his axe, but the enemy never got in.
The Shire on the otherhand got screwed over and wrecked, they never lost land as such but a lot of the land was destroyed just for the hell of it. }}

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Post by Lancebloke Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:46 pm

Figgy - in general.

We know that the following years turned in to golden ones, but thinking of the couple of years immediately proceeding the conclusion of the war.

I suppose we should consider when we thing the war officially began. I would consider that when Sauron moved back to Mordor and openly declared himself. I am sure that could be debated though (not sure if there is an official dating?).

I numbers of people lost, I would imagine that Rohan was most deeply impacted as it fought 3 large open battles against great armies.

But that is the problem, we spend a lot of time with those people so we see it more. Gondor was on the front and was often being attacked. Osgiliath was lost and retaken and lost. Ithilien was overrun, I assume to much loss of life. The south coast was attacked, the north was attacked and obviously the lands with the Pellenor, including the city, were attacked.

If I remember correctly, all of the other major areas (with the exception of Rivendell) were attacked to keep them from joining a new alliance.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:07 pm

{{Places like Osgiliath and Ithilien were lost long beore the books events, even when Boromir held the bridge at Osgiliath it was already a ruin, so dont know if you count those- otherwise do you count Gondors losses from their height as Numenoreans as that would include losing control of massive swathes including what is Rohan, and Isengard, and in fact everything up to the pillars of the Argonath?
If you take it from the state of Gondor as we meet it in LotR's then they didntl ose that much in terms of structure or land.
The Rohirrim fought three battles, and lost a lot of lifes, but interms of their land and property it was largely unscathed bar the burning of the Westfold- which was mainly farmland and could be resown. Same goes for the Pellanor, it was homesteads and farmland, not hard to rebuild or replace with a bit of time. And actually the fire probably made it more fertile afterwards.
Exactly what was going on in the north is bit harder, I am less certain there- we know Dain fought at Erebor, which would indicate Dale was at least temporarily lost or overrun. But need a lore master fo that one. }}

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Post by Lancebloke Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:18 pm

Just doing a bit of research, I think the War of the Ring officially started with the Battle of the Ford of Isen, where Theodred was killed, and ended with the Battle if Bywater.

So maybe we can use that time frame.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:24 pm

{{ Thats quite a short time period. Less than a year from start to finish. Personally Id take it from when Sauron made his first opening move and unleashed the Black Riders in the attack on Osgiliath that captured the eastern side of the river, it was only a front to mask the mission of the Ringwraiths- Saron wanted his enemies to see their reappearence as just part of his battle tactics and to preserve the secrecy of their real mission to track the Ring down.
So I'd take the start as being there, as it was the first act of outright aggression with an army, as opposed to petty raids and skirmishes. }}

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Post by Lancebloke Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:17 pm

Where is a loremaster when you need one?

There are a lot of actions that were setting the pieces in place for the war, just need to choose the right one. I think the ending as the Battle of Bywater is the correct place to say it finished though.

In case anyone was wondering, I just finished the book again and the details after the war are sketchy. Minas Tirith became awesome. Rohan prospered. The shire prospered. Most of the Elves left with the only real kingdom left being Thranduil. The Dwarves and Dale prospered and were allies of Gondor.

But with all of that it is like someone pressed a Game of Thrones reset button and all the "good" people respawned to do all of this. It doesn't seem to quite add up if there was as great a loss as is made out.
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Post by halfwise Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:13 pm

The elves lost the most. The three elven ringbearers buggered off soon afterwards, so things would never be the same. You might say that was delayed, but when their rings lost their power the loss was already in the bag.

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Post by Lancebloke Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:16 pm

But they got to go to Valinor!
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Post by halfwise Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:20 pm

I'm talking about the elves left behind.

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Post by Lancebloke Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:22 pm

Oh yeah... they were buggered.
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Post by halfwise Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:35 pm

But who says Valinor is that great? I think it may be immigrant's illusion of how great it will be once they get there. Been a long time since anyone reported back.  Probably find it full of strip malls ... and mosquitos since they chased the spiders out.

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