Denethor

Q: What do you feel about the Lord of the Ring scene, when Pippin is singing to Denethor?

A: The scene exists solely in the movie; it is not a scene from the book. The lyrics are taken from a completely different scene.

I thought the music was haunting, and Boyd sang it beautifully. The moment was quite affecting.

However, I didn't care for the way it depicted Denethor as a gluttonous tyrant and a horrible father. Denethor is not a monster; he was in fact a wise ruler. His fault was in giving in to despair, a serious no-no in Catholicism and in Tolkien's world.

I don't necessarily disapprove of changing the character from the book. This issue of faith is pretty abstruse, better handled in the contemplative nature of a book rather than the go-go-go nature of a film. Jackson also sought ways to cut the larger-than-life characters down to make the book more of an epic and less of a myth; that choice I am less sanguine about, but I understand it.

But I think he went too far with Denethor, and I feel that that scene in particular suffered for it. It doesn't humanize Denethor to turn him into a cartoon villain. Instead of an opportunity to engender real grief for a human whose fault is very similar to our own, we feel contempt for Denethor. His death seems like comeuppance, a pretty shallow emotion.

Jackson should have aimed for better. All he needed in that scene was to feel what we feel during that song, the heartbreak of a father and ruler who has just sent men to die in a necessary cause, helpless and forlorn. We would understand his despair, and instead of greeting his death with "Good", we'd say, "Wow, poor thing." That's a much worthier and more interesting emotion, not to mention better in keeping with the book.

Eldorion wrote:But one of the of the other guys watching kept yelling "piggie!" and "asshole!" at the screen whenever Denethor's dribbly tomato mouth appeared onscreen during that sequence.  It was kind of annoying, but only slightly less subtle than PJ's direction there.

halfwise wrote:I've voiced my opinion before about how the movie totally wasted one of the most interesting characters in the books.  There should never be any feelings of contempt for Denethor, it's the thing I hate most about the LotR movies.

Radaghast wrote:

Eldorion wrote:But one of the of the other guys watching kept yelling "piggie!" and "asshole!" at the screen whenever Denethor's dribbly tomato mouth appeared onscreen during that sequence.  It was kind of annoying, but only slightly less subtle than PJ's direction there.

I'm guessing that's the reaction PJ wanted; probably wanted people to pump their fists in the air when Gandalf clubbed him with his staff.

azriel wrote:Raddy, you get my vote for best Avatar !

bungobaggins wrote:

azriel wrote:Raddy, you get my vote for best Avatar !

Ditto!

Radaghast wrote:I'm guessing that's the reaction PJ wanted; probably wanted people to pump their fists in the air when Gandalf clubbed him with his staff.

azriel wrote:I have never enjoyed,( or made allowances for ) the way peejers mutated the set characters to fit within HIS world of ME. Because these characters are visualized on film makes it often harder to get them out of your head & you seem to accept that is the way the character is. Not everyone has, or will, read LOTRs so they wont know the truth, which can make a HUGE difference to the story.

bungobaggins wrote:

Radaghast wrote:

Eldorion wrote:But one of the of the other guys watching kept yelling "piggie!" and "asshole!" at the screen whenever Denethor's dribbly tomato mouth appeared onscreen during that sequence.  It was kind of annoying, but only slightly less subtle than PJ's direction there.

I'm guessing that's the reaction PJ wanted; probably wanted people to pump their fists in the air when Gandalf clubbed him with his staff.

Nearly 12 years ago, I remember this moment so clearly. People clapped and cheered when Gandalf bonked Denethor in the face. I just wondered why they took out the Palantir and ruined the pyre scene. Oh, and why there was no Beregond and Bergil.

Eldorion wrote:

Radaghast wrote:I'm guessing that's the reaction PJ wanted; probably wanted people to pump their fists in the air when Gandalf clubbed him with his staff.

Agreed, I think that's what they were going for.  And in that context they succeeded; I know plenty of people who love to hate movie!Denethor.  But I agree with you guys that he's a much shallower and less interesting character than his book counterpart, and I think they could have conveyed more of his depth with little effect on the film's running time.