The Desolation of Smaug- as seen by an increasingly reluctant Petty TYrant

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Post by Eldorion Sat May 10, 2014 12:00 am

David H wrote:The stay at Beorn's farmstead should really have had a slow, restful feeling of sanctuary, like the stay at Lothlorien in LotR.

That would have worked really well in a two film adaptation, where the company just escapes the big mid-point action sequence and it's an appropriate time, pacing wise, for rest, before moving on to the big finale (Mirkwood, spiders, barrels). The way they split things up, though, Beorn falls right at the beginning of the film, when you want to grab the audience and pull them back into Middle-earth. Slow and restful are suddenly narratively inappropriate, and Beorn is just a distraction to the necessary goals of the film.
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Post by azriel Sat May 10, 2014 9:06 am

That is one mark of a good film director, knowing when to roller coaster an audience. You need to have a safe break in an action film to make the next bit feel or seem more edgy than it might really be ? Where were Beorn's bees ? the log fire, the long hall with the long table & chairs  & most importantly for ME, where was the intro OF Beorn ? I liked his strong brooding charater in the book,I may have thought animals taking on the role of maid/butler a bit odd but, I would have liked the fooking chance to see the fooking things in the fooking film ??!! Peejers has definitly denied me a shed load of stuff I wanted to see & Im fooked if I have to resort to an over priced, plumped up fooking EE in the vain hope I WILL get to see bees or bears or whatever !  Mad

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Post by Forest Shepherd Sat May 10, 2014 10:59 am

David H wrote:Me too! I liked a lot of what I saw, for the few seconds it was on screen. I hope we get more in the EE's.  The stay at Beorn's farmstead should really have had a slow, restful feeling of sanctuary, like the stay at Lothlorien in LotR. Though there's evil all around, you can catch your breath and feel safe here (both the company and the audience).
Last I checked the overall feel of Lothlorien was one of menace! (and strange colouring ideas).
Only at the end of that sequence with the warmly-lit departure does the audience actually sense the comfort and rest that the fellowship enjoys there.

This is coming off as nitpicky, I'm sure, but Rivendell would be the more obvious comparison. I really didn't like Beorn's place. Inside it was nice enough, and the scale was just fine too. But the outside of the farmhouse was too small, so that the entire thing felt far less like a safe haven run by a robust and fearsome man and more like the hut of a tortured survivor who fondles mice to keep the bad memories away.

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Post by Mrs Figg Sat May 10, 2014 1:50 pm

I agree Dave. It all felt squished into a very small space, quite claustrophobic, the way they filmed it made it seem like a normal sized barn, I never got the sense of the large scale of the hall, or how big Beorn was in comparison to Bilbo, in the book bilbo could walk between his legs he was that tall. If they had done the Carrock properly they could have got a sense of following danger behind them, maybe howling of wolves in the distance making them hurry to Beorns, then the slow intro.

I never got a sense of menace from Lothlorien, it had an otherworldly faerie atmosphere, and faerie isnt a safe place, indeed lothlorien wasnt a safe place for mortals and that was beautifully done in the film.
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Post by David H Sat May 10, 2014 3:22 pm

Forest Shepherd wrote:
Last I checked the overall feel of Lothlorien was one of menace! (and strange colouring ideas).
Only at the end of that sequence with the warmly-lit departure does the audience actually sense the comfort and rest that the fellowship enjoys there.

I wouldn't have said "menace" in describing Lothlorien either. There's a sense that you're in a place where you don't quite understand the rules, and that there's a very real danger in braking the rules, but as Mrs Figg said, it's Faerie. Likewise, sleeping under the roof of a giant shape-shifter who hates dwarves and hunts goblins for fun, surrounded by giant bees whose sting could kill you, is a bit surreal in an uncertain, dangerous sort of way which reminds me more of Lothlorien than Rivendell.

On a side note, can anybody remember how much was added to Lothlorien between the theatrical edit and the EE? I'm curious how much that changed the tone.

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Post by Eldorion Sun May 11, 2014 2:54 am

David H wrote:On a side note, can anybody remember how much was added to Lothlorien between the theatrical edit and the EE?  I'm curious how much that changed the tone.  

I know they gave Celeborn more lines, which were delivered in a less wooden manner and made him not quite so jarringly bad. They also extended the Mirror of Galadriel scene and added the gift-giving when the Fellowship departed.
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Post by Ringdrotten Sun May 11, 2014 1:30 pm

I think the conversation between Aragorn and Boromir is also EE-exclusive, and that's one of my favourite scenes in FotR. Sean Bean delivered those lines perfectly. Adding the gift-giving scene I thought Lothlorien was very much improved in the EE. Celeborn, Galadriel and their mental conditions didn't do much to improve anything, though.

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Post by Mrs Figg Sun May 11, 2014 4:02 pm

Eldorion wrote:
David H wrote:On a side note, can anybody remember how much was added to Lothlorien between the theatrical edit and the EE?  I'm curious how much that changed the tone.  

I know they gave Celeborn more lines, which were delivered in a less wooden manner and made him not quite so jarringly bad.  They also extended the Mirror of Galadriel scene and added the gift-giving when the Fellowship departed.

cant imagine Celeborn not being wooden, his was the worst performance by a mile.
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Post by Ringdrotten Sun May 11, 2014 4:29 pm

I had forgotten, but Eldo's right - Celeborn is less wooden in that extra scene, the one where he gives Aragorn the knife. If only his character hadn't already been ruined by "Tell me wheeere is Gaaandalf, fooor I muuch desiire too speak wiiiith hiiim"

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Post by malickfan Sun May 11, 2014 4:52 pm

Incidentally had anyone read the scripts for LOTR? I'm not sure if this is my memory confusing things, but I recall stumbling across one of the early drafts on the web a few years back, there were actually references to The White Council and the menace of Dol Guldur on Lorien's doorstep-I recall Haldir discussed it with Aragorn and Legolas.

Can't find the source (if it did exist) though I'm pretty sure this wasn't filmed.

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Post by Mrs Figg Sun May 11, 2014 5:22 pm

talking of what was filmed I would really like to see the Galadriel Arwen bit, I saw a photo with them together once.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 Sun May 11, 2014 6:45 pm

Id like to get my hands on the extra stuff just to see if there is anything useful to the purist edits.
But sadly I suspect a lot of it will be just bad abandoned ideas, like footage of Arwen at Helms Deep or Aragorn fighting Annatar.

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Post by Mrs Figg Sun May 11, 2014 7:14 pm

PJs filming style seems to be film the whole lot then chop it later, I dont care what he chopped from TH but I am really curious about LOTR stuff. Scouring of the Shire springs to mind, or moar Lothlorien.
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Post by Eldorion Mon May 12, 2014 2:33 am

malickfan wrote:Incidentally had anyone read the scripts for LOTR? I'm not sure if this is my memory confusing things, but I recall stumbling across one of the early drafts on the web a few years back, there were actually references to The White Council and the menace of Dol Guldur on Lorien's doorstep-I recall Haldir discussed it with Aragorn and Legolas.

Can't find the source (if it did exist) though I'm pretty sure this wasn't filmed.

Did they ever publish official versions of the screenplays?  I've found a couple of sites that claim to have official copies, but I have no idea if they're accurate and (from a cursory glance) there doesn't seem to be anything in them that couldn't have been gleaned from a close viewing of the finished films.
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Post by Forest Shepherd Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:02 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Id like to get my hands on the extra stuff just to see if there is anything useful to the purist edits.
But sadly I suspect a lot of it will be just bad abandoned ideas, like footage of Arwen at Helms Deep or Aragorn fighting Annatar.
What do you mean, "Aragorn fighting Annatar"!?
Surely PJ and Co. did not consider giving Sauron a physical form like that which he enjoyed before he fell in the ruin of Numenor for his fight scene with Aragorn?

What am I saying, even considering having those two fight is the most ridiculous thing. They could have had Sauron wearing a horse head mask for all it would matter.

As a matter of pure speculation, do you think PJ fancied the portly Corsair whip-master that he played as being more purely descended from the Black Numenorians than the majority of the men of Umbar? He's really the most dominant corsair that we see in the film.

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Post by Orwell Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:52 am

So I take it Aragorn will be fighting Sauron then. Nod

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Post by Forest Shepherd Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:36 pm

Well, this is all in reference to the discarded idea PJ and Co. had about having Aragorn fight a physical Sauron at the Black Gate. Apparently they cut and pasted a great Troll in instead.

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Post by Eldorion Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:05 pm

Forest Shepherd wrote:What do you mean, "Aragorn fighting Annatar"!?
Surely PJ and Co. did not consider giving Sauron a physical form like that which he enjoyed before he fell in the ruin of Numenor for his fight scene with Aragorn?

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but...

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:24 pm

Putting aside the awfulness of this idea I actually quite like the look of Annatar (Im going on it being a Lee concept, as it looks like his style), except for the spikey bits on the armour- bit of a give away those and I suspect they are there as part of the PJ and Coven thinking that if we dont make it look sort of like the Sauron the audience know in the armour they will be too stupid to realise whats going on.  Mad 

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Post by Eldorion Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:19 pm

I don't think it's supposed to "look like" the armor from the prologue, but rather be the same armor, just without the helmet. Once the vision passed, Sauron appeared as he had in the prologue (armor and all) and began fighting Aragorn.  On a semi-related notes, are those things behind Sauron's head part of the armor, or are they ears sticking out of his hair like he's a World of Warcraft elf?

Regardless, the idea was dumb on many levels.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:26 pm

I thought they were part of the armour, more spikiness.
And the fact they felt they had to put the non threatening incarnation into the same armour to remind audiences its Sauron only makes it worse than suggesting it as I had thought.
That means they actually think the audience is even more stupid than I originally thought they thought they were. And that was pretty stupid already I can tell you.  drunken

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Post by Forest Shepherd Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:14 am

No Eldo, I'd never seen that image before. Where does it come from? Deleted scenes of some kind?

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:13 pm

I think thats from one of the making of vids on the EE of RotK- but I could be wrong about that, been a long time since I watched them.

All thats left of it in the finished film is that weird moment right before Aragorn says 'For Frodo' and they all charge- where you hear Sauron calling Aragorn's name and Gandalf sort of does a dane move and waves his hand in front of his eyes- that was supposed to be when Sauron appears as Annatar.

And the fight Aragorn has with the armoured troll is the shots left over from the fight with a fully armed Sauron with the troll painted over the top of Sauorn- I assume it had to be a troll to be big enough to cover the spiky hat!

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Post by Eldorion Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:44 pm

They play some of the footage in the ROTK-EE documentaries, like Petty says. There's no dialogue, just footage playing while PJ or whoever was talking. Someone uploaded the whole to YouTube years ago but I can't find the video at the moment. The best that I could find was this chopped up (fan re-edited) copy of it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_k8RTKGlg0#t=74s
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Post by azriel Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:33 pm

No matter how dumb ass the theory may be that, Viggers meets Sauron for a big boys brawl, its certainly more entertaining & some what more sensible than having a gormless Troll who doesnt know his arse from his elbow ? I could believe that better ? I mean, Sauron doesnt want Aragorn popping up & spoiling playtime does he, and Aragorn is the saviour of the world if not reluctantly so, a battle between the two at the end would have been better than with Homer Simpson in a Onesie.

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