The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Also, in case anyone (read: Elthir) is wondering, I don't mean this as a slight or criticism of Christopher in any way. This might not be necessary to state, but I've inadvertently stumbled into some fairly heated pro/anti-Christopher battles in the past. I have the highest respect for Christopher's work with the legendarium.

I didn't take anything as a slight Eldo, but yes there are some out there who go deep into 1977 Silmarillion criticisms. Nor are any of my comments above intended as negative criticism, if anyone took any that way.

I think CJRT is too hard on himself sometimes, although there are two matters where he seems to say he wishes he did otherwise that I must agree with: providing a framework of sorts [even if minimal], and trying for a Fall of Doriath with less invention -- although that would be difficult I think, and would take some pondering.

What would I do given the problems the actual texts present? I'm not sure today.

The editing and the rewriting/writing would be different bases for copyright though. But it's a small legal point, and I don't really doubt there was enough of rewriting/writing to give him copyright as an author as well given the unstructured nature of the material. And he would have copyright as an editor anyway.

Thanks for clearing that up guys and gals (I didn't get a single reply when I posted it on TORn...maybe everyone was in shock)

The Silmarillion certainly seems to be in copyright for longer than I imagined, it basically boils down to how we Classify Christopher as 'Author' or Editor-he sees himself as editor, but in some of the pothumous material (The Fall of Arthur for instance) he has actually written more material than his father (commentary, but it would still be under his father's copyright?) so how would that work?

In his will JRR gave his son free rein to do whatever he wanted with his papers, given when he was still alive he took at least a minor interest in proposed adaptions of his work, I think he would discuss the sale of further rights with Christopher as a precaution at least:

http://sacnoths.blogspot.co.uk/2009/12/tolkiens-will.html

I would say it boils down to wether you have to consider a work a collective work or one of clearly distinguishable parts.

Let's take the example of a collection of short stories written by different authors. Each author would have copyright on his short story, but not all on the collection together. The editor of such a collection would have copyright as an editor on the works in their collected state, but only as far as it didn't infringe on the copyright on the individual works in his edited collection.

In the Silmarillion on the other hand Christopher has collected pieces of his fathers writing, put them in a certain order, rewritten certain passsages and written certain newly written passages on his own. There is no way to pull the parts out of the whole and say this stand up as a work of art on it's own. So it must be seen as a collective work betwen him and his father.

And copyright would then be decided as refered to above, 70 years after the longest living contributors death.

Ah ok, that makes sense.

So we aren't counting Guy Kay at all? He wasn't officially credited so I guess legally he had 'nothing' to do with The Silmarillion.

Come to think of it, I've never read any interviews where he talks about The Sil.

The first question would be if his contribution fulfilled the demands for copyright, as we are assuming Christophers did.

According to Christopher he:

Christopher Tolkien has commented that "almost every substantial change", made to his father's manuscripts for publication as The Silmarillion in 1977, was:

"discussed with Guy Kay. He indeed made many suggestions for the construction of the text (such as, in the tale of Beren and Lúthien, the introduction of a passage from the Lay of Leithian), and proposed solutions to problems arising in the making of a composite narrative... in some cases of major significance to the structure ..."

His work certainly doesn't seem to have been officially aknowledged in that respect. Wether that is by agreement or the common realization that his contribution wasn't of that nature, I'm not sure.

Well he doesn't seem to be in any hurry to talk about it in anycase, he was in his early 20's at the time I believe so maybe he felt he hadn't earned the right (or needed to be) acknowledged in such a manner if the actual written work he contributed was less than Christopher.

Yeah, there obviously is an explanation. One way or the other.

It's good to note, from that quote at least, that Christopher doesn't mention him doing any actual writing. So he might have been involved in a more advisory capacity.

I think it's rather telling/ironic Christopher asked a future best selling author to advise on editing the book, when he knew the source material and author better than anyone alive, Christopher Tolkien is often slated for making a living from his father's half finished writing, but I've always got the impression he felt almost too protective, editing rather than reconstructing, perhaps Kay was a back up fall guy if The Sil tanked.

  

On a semi related note would 'Songs for the Philologists' still be under copyright?

As it's a collection of 30 distinguishable songs, 13 of which were Tolkiens. I would asume each text has copyright on it's own, which would follow the rules for all of Tolkiens work and extend to 70 years after his death.

So yes.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDBF878E9C3B79CD1

Your pic reminded me of the xray my optician  took of my eyeball   (the tree in front of the sun)

chris63 wrote:

Although I'm more or less totally against a adpation of the Sil, great artwork like this is always nice to see (that's one of the reasons why-let's leave it open to interpretation, The Sil has a much more spiritual/mythical scope than LOTR or Hobbit, artwork like this reflects the book in a way a film just couldn't)

azriel wrote:Your pic reminded me of the xray my optician  took of my eyeball   (the tree in front of the sun)

Ayup Boots...

Which reminds me I'm two months late for mine... must dash and get that appointment booked now...

Hello Stu  

azriel wrote:Hello Stu  

Hi Sweet.

You OK ? I think I may owe you an Email... Be in touch soon. Fecked off ATMO....

Amore. XXXX

parlare con voi presto rallegrare ?   Feanor.

Si Darling, Si.

This thread is making me want more of Tolkien's work visualized. It's just so tempting to imagine in your mind the effortless intrigue and beauty possible in the bringing-to-life of Middle-Earth's epic history.
It's basically the same wishful thinking that captured my imagination before the first Hobbit blogs started coming out.  

You are so gonna regret those words Forest. Cos unless a Film company with a half decent chairman that has at least a partial segment of intelligence, who is willing to scour for the right screen writer, scripter,producer & director turns up, then, we're all fooked ! We've all seen how easy it is to botch it up, Peejers has done wonders in the "how not to get it right" department. I hope, that in the future, many will learn from Peejers and, .................get the story fooking right !

As if I don't know that Azriel! I've been here the whole time. And although I enjoyed LotR far more than some hard-liners like Petty ever will, The Hobbit was a cruel blow.
I just can't resist the urge to daydream, that's all.

I wont stop you daydreaming, its all Ive done for years. After several attempts to get the Hobbit on screen I thought (stupidly) that just maybe Peejers could do it, I mean, how can you fook up a little story like The Hobbit ??........... EASILY ! according to Peejers ! He thinks its to boring, stagnant, uninteresting. Lets throw in all the characters & influences from MY LOTRs & that'l cheer it up ! (Peejers must be thinking as he rubs his porky hands)  Ah, Miles better ! Shame that chap Tolkien didnt realise a thing or two eh ?! Oh well, back to Neverland, see what else Peejers can conjure up to lift this bland,tame childrens bed time story book  

Thingol became obsessed with the Silmaril and hired some Dwarves to place it in the Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves. The Dwarven craftsmen also became obsessed with the jewel and slew Thingol for possession of it, setting off a chain of events that led to the destruction of Doriath and the scattering of its people.