To what extent do you consider The Hobbit a part of Tolkien's mythology?

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Post by malickfan Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:47 pm

Random thread alert!

Lately I've been musing on my feelings on An Unexpected Rewrite, and besides the technical issues I have with the film, I've come to the conclusion that I have a totally different approach to the story than the screenwriters-namely I don't really consider The Hobbit a part of Tolkien's mythology.

To me, it's a generic children's fairytale, at best loosely connected with early drafts of The Silmaillion, at it's worse a totally out of sync prequel to a book (LOTR) it really shouldn't be compared to. I actually read The Hobbit for the first time aged 17 or so, after LOTR and Unfinsihed Tales (maybe the sil as well) so I got the backstory first-a backstory that to me isn't necessary to enjoy the story-the tonal differences and pace of The Hobbbit that some find jarring were actually the elements I enjoyed the most-for me it's fun to find a self contained may or may not be Portal into Middle Earth that is all about having fun, not bogged down with the details (no matter how beautiful) of a Mythology it didn't need to be a part of.

So, a few questions then:

How do you 'read' the story of The Hobbit?-separate children's story, LOTR prequel or Silmarillion spin of?-Do you think this might have some reflection on your reaction to the films?

How old were you when you first read the book?

If you have read The History of The Hobbit or The Quest For Erebor what do you make of Tolkien's alterations to the story of the Hobbit, and his mooted recasting in the 60's?-Was it a good idea to unify the two hobbit stories more fully, or are you glad they stand apart.


This thread could also act as a jumping off point for general discussions about the book (and it's talking purse) something we are all quite fond of.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:06 pm

I read Th as a child and loved it for what it was, a sometimes funny, funny scary, sometimes dark, sometime magnificent tale of fun, daring and adventure.

When I reread it as an adult and post LotR's I see it as Bilbo's version of the troy as he wanted it to be told, and I am even happy to enter into Tolkiens conceit that the original published Hobbit was based of an account of an earlier version Bilbo had written in which he tried to hide what really happened surrounding his finding of the Ring.

So I see it as the same world but the with the difference that LotR's is an account written by a scholar based on existing information written down by the surviving members of the Fellowship along with collected accounts from other races (again within the conceit) and that TH is an account of the same world but from a single persons point of view. Thus accounting for the differences in style and storytelling.

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Post by malickfan Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:13 pm

Fair enough, that is more or less the reasoning Tolkien gave-but like I said above it's not one I'm partial-the Hobbit is at it's heart a silly fun children's story, I think people try too hard to link it with LOTR, because they don't like the tonal differences.

In anycase I think Bilbo would make a much better story teller than Frodo.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:20 pm

I think Bilbo is in many ways a better story teller- its more direct and its aimed at a specific audience.

For me I dont link them because of any dislike in tonal differences I wish to overcome- I loved TH for what it was as a kid and I still do as an adult, and with an even greater appreciation for the word games and fun an adult can have reading it. I just dont have any problem either accepting Tolkiens linking mechanism for the two.
It works for me. Shrugging 

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Post by Bluebottle Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:34 pm

I think it's hard to see the rest of Tolkiens Middle Earth stories seperated from the Hobbit. Particularily the Lord of the Rings wich builds it's entier story on the premis of the Hobbit. Though it's certainly written in a different style. I guess you could see the Hobbit as the innocent discovery of Middle Earth and then the Lord of the Rings as the stone cold reality. Wich was probably how Middle Earth politics developed as well with Sauron revealing himself after the end of the Hobbit.

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Post by Mrs Figg Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:46 pm

for me the Hobbit is the Mallorn nut nestling in Sam's little wooden box, LOTR is the Mallorn tree fully grown in all its majesty and beauty.
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Post by Tinuviel Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:33 am

I'd like to extend that metaphor Figgs, because I like it alot! I feel like the Silmarillion is the roots, LOTR the trunk, UT HOME and all those are the bark, and the Hobbit is a branch coming off of it. I almost feel like it was a side story, something that just emerged out of this world he'd already created. With such a solid base, it seems like an excerpt of the History of Middle Earth, something created out of a natural process. It just came into being one day organically.

So I feel like it is a part of the mythology, but quite removed from it, so much so that it is more like a real-life event that is shaped by the mythology with out really taking any part in it.
It's like the mythology of the Silmarillion is the ideology in the Hobbit to which every character is subjected to, but neither they nor the readers are consciously aware of it in the story.

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Post by bungobaggins Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:53 am

malickfan wrote:How do you 'read' the story of The Hobbit?-separate children's story, LOTR prequel or Silmarillion spin of?-Do you think this might have some reflection on your reaction to the films?
I read The Hobbit as a prequel to LOTR, but told and written in a different style. Think of it like two different symphonies from the same composer. One is grand in scope, lengthy, romantic, and epic; the other is shorter, quaint, even humorous at times, not as complex in its form, structure or narrative, but is still masterfully crafted.

malickfan wrote:How old were you when you first read the book?
I was in 6th grade when I first read The Hobbit, so 11 or 12.

I still need to read History of The Hobbit.

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Post by Sinister71 Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:46 am

realistically for me I see the Hobbit and LOTR as the same world but separate stories within that world. One being a simple adventure tale, very linear and straight forward being the original. The other more complex and weaving a majestic tapestry begun by the original. Similar characters but completely different in their own right.

Something Jackson seems to have forgotten. Instead he feels the need to babysit us, constantly reminding us of what is to come in LOTR. films which technically their events have not happened yet if you go by a linear time line. Something Tolkien clearly gave us. Yes he went back to embellish the Hobbit, which is why we have UT and other great writings by him. But i do not feel they were ever meant to be part of the stories proper. Just minute details for those interested in finding them. Not to be used for someone to deliver their own rewritten version of Tolkien's stories.

SO..... long story LONG Saucy Wink  ... same world two separate completely different stories with a few cross over characters. Nothing more. The Hobbit was more a precursor to the LOTR but definitely NOT a prequel

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Post by halfwise Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:48 pm

All of the above. good job folks, on to the next topic...

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Post by Radaghast Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:30 pm

I was 15 when I first read it, my first Tolkien book.

I don't read TH as a prequel (because it isn't—though I think prelude might be a good word). LotR has a different tone because it "grew in the telling" (Tolkien's own words). That's why Tolkien had to redact certain portions of TH to fit the larger narrative (in superhero comic book terms, this would be called a retcon). LotR introduces a whole new set of circumstances from TH because Bilbo was 50 and Tolkien evidently couldn't think of any new adventures for him, thus these new situations and characters had to be invented to tell the story demanded by Tolkien's publishers. Anyway, LotR does not stand apart from TH; it exists because of TH. Yes, TH and LotR differ tonally, but it doesn't bother me too much, considering the circumstances of the writing of each book. It's also true that TH was not originally intended to be a part of Tolkien's mythos; it's something that just happened. But I think the world he imagined is richer for it. For me, it was great to reread TH after reading TS and seeing all the references Tolkien slipped in there—I love that kind of stuff.

Lastly, I also don't find much about it that's particularly silly. If anything, I find it quite grim in several places, though not as grim as The Silmarillion or LotR. I kind of like to think of it as a bit of a break between the ultra-seriousness of TS and that of LotR.
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Post by Ringdrotten Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:36 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:for me the Hobbit is the Mallorn nut nestling in Sam's little wooden box, LOTR is the Mallorn tree fully grown in all its majesty and beauty.
I came here thinking I'd offer my two cents, then I saw your reply. Can't put it any better than this Very Happy

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Post by Elthir Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:41 pm

To the full extent Very Happy 

I indulge in the conceit, and for me a tale for children fits right in. Elrond possibly read The Awakening of the Quendi to his children for instance, which [Tolkien explains] was actually written in style and simple notions to be a surviving Elvish 'fairytale' or child's tale mingled with counting lore.

The White Book of Hergest contains a variety of stuff [for a real word example], and I think the Red Book of Westmarch could contain and even greater variety of traditions and poems. As noted already, The Lord the Rings would not 'be' but for The Hobbit, and the mythology contained no Hobbits before The Hobbit.

I don't find the tone of The Hobbit, nor its inconsistencies [keeping in mind its consistencies and its rather major 'connections' like Bilbo and the One Ring] a hindrance, and the style of The Silmarillion differs from that of The Lord the Rings for example, but most people seem to accept these works as parts of the mythology.

Is it 'true' is another question. For example I don't think Tolkien expected readers to necessarily entertain that in Middle-earth there really was a troll baking bread for someone named 'Perry', but it makes a charming enough poem in the Red Book in an imagined time when we know trolls 'lived and breathed', so to speak.
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