Questions for the Lore Masters.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:29 pm

{{ He did fix some things, and rewrote the Gollum/Bilbo scenes in Hobbit. And given the entire problem is caused by a single short statement from Gandalf its odd he never took it out or altered it. }}

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Post by halfwise Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:55 pm

single short statements are easy to miss. I know from writing papers that once you've been through your own writing a few times your eyes tend to skim right through the familiar parts, so much so that you forget the details of the most familiar parts.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Tue May 18, 2021 12:02 am

{{ In Letter 200 Tolkien says the following about Maia and their physical forms-

'They were self-incarnated, if they wished; but their incarnate forms were more analogous to our clothes than to our bodies, except that they were more than are clothes the expression of their desires, moods, wills and functions.'

So how did Sauron appear 'fair' in the 2nd age, shouldnt his outward form always reflect then his inner spirit of ambition, desire for power and dominance? }}

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Post by halfwise Tue May 18, 2021 1:55 am

They are clothes. If you want to look rich even though you aren't, you put on a nice suit.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Tue May 18, 2021 2:08 am

{{ Yes but way Tolkien writes it the implication is their outward form reflects their inward spirit, not as matter of choice but just as how it works. So if youre Morgoth you look like an evil being, even manifest, if youre Gandalf you look like a wise friendly old man.
Tolkien says their bodies are an expression of their desires etc. And Saurons spirit was never good, so his outward form should never be good following that logic as his desires and aims were never good.}}

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Post by Amarië Tue May 18, 2021 6:46 am

Petty wrote: the expression of their desires, moods, wills and functions.'

By that logic Gandalf looks like an old man because his inner being is an old fart rather than a powerful undercover agent. Olorin's Gandalf "clothes" aims to be purposly underestimated, but still a believable source of wisdom and advise and some sneaky manipulations. Imagine a pimplefaced teen Olorin acchiving what Gandalf did.

Sauron wasn't born evil, he chose to follow Morgoth among with many other fire spirits. Sauron's desire, wants and "function" is to deceive, attract and mislead so he can acchive his goals. While he is strong, he can make himself look attractive.

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Post by halfwise Tue May 18, 2021 11:18 am

What she said.

I'm sure they can put on clothes to deceive, but when they relax their will they may revert to something closer to their true nature. Application of will overcomes natural desires/functions.

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Post by chris63 Wed May 19, 2021 1:33 pm

Why didn't Gandalf no the password to the gates of Moria?
Being 7 thousand years old he would have been that way before. Wasn't it a popular way to travel back then.

Speak freind and enter.

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Post by Mrs Figg Wed May 19, 2021 2:14 pm

I think that was the problem, he was too clever and missed the simple answer.
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Post by halfwise Wed May 19, 2021 2:19 pm

He didn't arrive in Middle Earth until circa 1000 TA. Dealings between Moria and Eregion were long over, and the Balrog (Durin's Bane) took residence in 1980 TA. Unless Gandalf had come in from the unpopulated back during those thousand years he wouldn't have used the password.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Wed May 19, 2021 8:51 pm

his inner being is an old fart rather than a powerful undercover agent.- Amarie

{{Going on unfinshed tales he pretty much was before he got sent, he didnt want to go at all, he was afraid of Sauron and just wanted to remain with the Valar and not get involved, let alone be a powerful undercover agent. }}

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Post by halfwise Wed May 19, 2021 9:00 pm

But he looked very much like Saruman, who had a whole different inner world going on. I think Tolkien meant they can put on bodies as representations, and you may expect (like clothes) they would normally be truthful representations; but that doesn't mean they couldn't change them at will.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Wed May 19, 2021 9:15 pm

{{ Sarumans intentions when he is sent and when he arrives are good though. And when he goes bad he does change appearence, as his robes of many colours seem a bit more than just a bit of normal cloth. His changed intent and desire seems to be reflected by them.}}

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Post by halfwise Wed May 19, 2021 10:50 pm

He made his own robes, I don't think that was mystical manifestation of his personality. And except for his robes (which did not in themselves signify treasonous intent) Gandalf didn't see anything to immediately make him distrustful, as he would if the thoughts automatically guided the form.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Wed May 19, 2021 10:51 pm

{{ Then he had some pretty nifty sewing skills to make robes whose colours change all the time! }}

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Wed May 19, 2021 11:00 pm

{{ Also Gandalf did notice immediately, before he even got to the steps he says - "and suddenly I was afraid, though I knew no reason for it".... then when he sees Saruman,"in his eyes there seemed a white light, as if cold laughter was in his heart".. and when he goes inside with Saruman, "I looked then and saw that his robes, which had seemed white, were not so, but were woven of all colours, and if he moved they shimmered and changed hue so that the eye was bewildered."

Bad vibes coming off him and physical tells. It does rather seem like his intent and change is reflected in his eyes and voice and his robes.}}

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Post by halfwise Wed May 19, 2021 11:27 pm

Typical human readings, nothing to do with a change in physical form such as you are ascribing to Sauron/Annatar.

His robe seemed ascribed to his studying and learning some craft, "woven of all colors", not some astral projection.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Wed May 19, 2021 11:39 pm

{{ Tolkien doesnt say they changed physical form, only that their inward state is reflected in their outer form. In this case Gandalf feels something is wrong and is afraid soon as he arrives, and then he sees something in Sarumans eyes which was not there before. And as to his robes, thats an interesting one in itself, as when Gandalf returns he is robed in white by Galadriel, presumably not just any old white robes as we know from the cloaks she makes and gives out that just like Sarumans robes they too are capabale of changing hue, only in the case of Galadriel it seems to reflect her inward love of Arda and nature so they blend to their environment, whereas in Sarumans case it reflects his desire for power and to be master of all colours. }}

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Post by halfwise Wed May 19, 2021 11:49 pm

A "strange light in the eyes" is NOT a change in form. Any more than when you get a strange light in the eyes when you see a bottle of bucky in front of you.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Wed May 19, 2021 11:56 pm

{{ I always have that look, theres always a bottle of buckie in front of me. Nod
But it is an outward reflection of his inward state, combined with the weird hue changing robes and the bad vibes Gandalf gets upon arrival he never got before. And as I said Tolkien doesnt say they changed outward form, only that their outward form reflects the inner, which Gandalf noticing it in his eyes would seem to fit, as does the bad vibes coming off him and the robes.
Its at least consistent with what he says in letters about the body being 'the expression of their desires, moods, wills and functions.' in a way that Sauron looking fair and presumably feeling like a good decent guy isnt. }}

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Post by halfwise Thu May 20, 2021 2:35 am

Gandalf's description of the changes in Saruman are NOTHING like the changes in form between Annatar and Sauron. The changes in Saruman could apply just as well to a normal human being who gets a gleam in the eye and switches to a polyester suit. NO comparison to a flaming eye. Not even remotely.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Thu May 20, 2021 8:47 am

{{ Where does a flaming eye come into it? You been watching those awful films again haven't you? Sauron appears fair as Annator- which as I noted seems to contradict what Tolkien says in Letters about their outward forms being reflective of their inner spirit. Saruman is more in line with his Letters statement- in that he arrives looking like a nice old wise man same as rest, and when he turns he has a bad vibe, a weird gleam in his eye and robes that bewilder, he's outwardly different to what he was before. When Gandlaf arrives at Isengard he notes he is afraid but doesnt know why he would be- its something new, something he hasnt felt before around Saruman even though they didnt get on before. Thats more like Letters, something has changed in Saruman and outwardly its detectable. He cant hide it.
Sauron in the 2nd age did hide it, which is what seems to contradict the Letters statement about their bodies. }}

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Thu May 20, 2021 10:54 am

{{ May have found an actual lore based answer to this- for a period Sauron genuinely repented, not faking it, but the real deal, and it was only later he fell back into his old ways. This would explain him appearing fair as at that time is intentions to heal the hurts of the world were actually real. }}

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Post by halfwise Thu May 20, 2021 12:21 pm

Poof - Sauron looked fair the whole time he was deceiving the elves. He wasn't all good and pure while showing them how to make the rings, then realized while out on a walk he could make a master ring and suddenly turned hideous.

And you are missing the point about Saruman: his changes were not a change in form. He still looked exactly like Saruman. But Sauron changed so much he could go by a different name. A big part of the change to the Great Eye was losing his body in the destruction of Numenor "so he could never appear in fair form again", but that just shows that he once COULD put on a fair form. He could be kidnapped to Numenor and basically seduce them the way he did the elves - you can't possibly say he had fair intentions then.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Thu May 20, 2021 12:28 pm

{{ Which is why i brought the matter up for a lore master- as Tolkiens statement in Letters seems in direct contradiction to this.
Saruman you can kind of wangle to fit the statement, at least somewhat as there are at least changes and tells he has gone bad, but Sauron is a bit trickier.}}

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