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Post by Elthir Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:20 pm

Drat. Double post.


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Post by Elthir Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:26 pm

halfwise wrote:I have a 1965 Ballantine edition. Galadriel is of the house of Finarphir, and sister of Finrod.  Under Translation the golden house of Finrod is mentioned.

Thanks Halfy!

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Post by halfwise Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:28 pm

Yeah, the hair is in the Under Translation section - coupled with the golden house of Finrod of course.  Though you'd think if both Galady and Finrod had golden hair one would refer to the golden house of Finarphir.

Edit: definitely FinarphiR not FinarphiN, but only appears once so may be a typo?


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Post by Elthir Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:34 pm

Yes! In your copy, seems like a "half revision" was made regarding Appendix F versus B.

Would you mind quoting the actual sentence with Finarphir? Not that I question you here Halfy, but I'd like to see how the Appendix B sentence relates to first edition versus later editions. In other words, I'll call it version B below -- I'm pretty sure I can guess it, but just to be sure.



A) First Edition 1956 (Appendix B): "But the wife of Celeborn was Noldorin: Galadriel, sister of Felagund of the House of Finrod." (Appendix F) House of "Finrod"


B) Revised edition BB, 1965 (Appendix F) "Noblest of all was the Lady Galadriel, of the royal house of Finarphir and sister of Finrod Felagund, King of Nargothrond." -- "They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden House of Finrod; ..."


C) Random later edition HC, 2004 (Appendix B) "( . . . ) his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women. She was sister of Finrod Felagund, Friend-of-Men, once king of Nargothrond . . ." (Appendix F) golden House of "Finarfin"


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Post by halfwise Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:53 pm

So you make me climb back up on my loft bed...

"Noblest of all was the Lady Galadriel, of the royal house of Finarphir and sister of Finrod Felagund, King of Nargothrond."

"They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finrod; ..."

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Post by Eldy Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:55 pm

Hmm. Elthir, you mentioned on the previous page that you have a '70s Ballantine edition that uses "Finrod", right? Based on that and the modern edition my friend showed me, I would've thought Ballantine made the change after the publication of The Silmarillion in 1977, but after Halfy's post I'm not sure.

Either way, this indicates Anderson's statement that the Ballantine text has not changed since 1966 should, at the very least, be considered to mean not substantively changed. But from what I can glean based on the "Note on the Text", it doesn't sound like Ballantine was involved in the discussions between HarperCollins, Houghton Mifflin, Christopher, and scholars such as Anderson himself and Hammond and Scull. If so, it's not too surprising the "Note" doesn't mention Ballantine making minor typographical changes between printings. (By contrast, it does mention such changes to the mainline editions as in e.g. 1974, which H&S separately suggest is when "Finarphir" entered the picture.)

Elthir wrote:By the way Eldy, do you have the link to the Fanatics Forum? Still not sure if I'll post there, but I lost all my favorites and my e-mail address has changed -- lost all my old e-mails in the process too.

https://www.lotrfanaticsplaza.com/forum/index.php

I wasn't initially sure if it would last more than two weeks, but the revived version of the site is now creeping up on three months of age and still going strong (though, as with the Old Plaza, activity is concentrated primarily in the role-playing fora). I'd love to see you on the Plaza again if you choose to join! Smile


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Post by Elthir Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:57 pm

But it was worth it! Thanks Halfy. Very interesting!  Especially considering my thoughts on canon. I'm going to edit your copy of the text into my earlier post!


Edit: and thanks Eldy, didn't see you here before I responded!

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Post by halfwise Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:05 am

Elthir could you edit in the dates on your versions A, B, C? BTW it was all appendix F in my edition, split between "elves" and "on Translation"

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Post by Eldy Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:11 am

So I'm looking back at Hammond & Scull's comments on both passages from The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion. Elthir quoted the second of these comments on the previous page.

Note for p. 1128 wrote:As first published this passage read: 'the Lady Galadriel of the royal house of Finrod, father of Felagund, lord of Nargothrond'. In the second edition (1965) it was altered to: 'the Lady Galadriel of the royal house of Finarphir and sister of Finrod Felagund, King of Nargothrond'. By the ninth printing (1978) of the Allen & Unwin second edition 'Finarphir' was changed by Christopher Tolkien to 'Finarfin' as in The Silmarillion.

Note for p. 1137 wrote:As first published, "Finarfin" read "Finrod". In the Allen & Unwin three-volume paperback edition (1974) "Finrod" was changed to "Finarphir" (first and second printing), then to "Finarphin" (third printing, 1975), and finally "Finarfin" (fourth printing, 1976), as Christopher Tolkien determined the name to be used in The Silmarillion (1977)."

As far as I can tell, this accurately reflects the progression of changes in the Ballantine version of the second edition, as outlined in Elthir's post slightly upthread. There was perhaps a slight lag, but it seems the original version of the second edition--for both Ballantine and Allen & Unwin--changed the royal house from Finrod's to Finarphir's only in the first mention. I'm not sure if Ballantine ever used the "Finarphin" version (apparently only used by A&U in 1975), though.

Halfy, in the second mention of the royal house (from the last few pages of Appendix F), does your edition use Finrod, Finarphir, or something else?

(Not sure how to square this with WCH's report that a 1976 Houghton Mifflin edition still used "Finrod". That would seem to suggest Ballantine was using a more current version of the text than HM at one point, which is the opposite of the picture painted by Anderson in the "Note on the Text". Perhaps Hicklin was referring only to the second mention of the royal house, in which case his edition was using the half-changed version.)


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Post by halfwise Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:18 am

"...of the golden house of Finrod:.." Not sure what you are asking.

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Post by Eldy Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:24 am

That's what I was asking, yeah. Thank you!

As far as I can tell--based on what we've found in our editions as well as H&S' comments--the progression goes:

First edition: "royal house of Finrod" and "golden house of Finrod"
Second edition (1965): "royal house of Finarphir" and "golden house of Finrod"
Second edition (1974): "royal house of Finarphir" and "golden house of Finarphir"
Second edition (1975): ??? and "golden house of Finarphin"
Second edition (contemporary): "royal house of Finarfin" and "golden house of Finarfin"
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Post by Elthir Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:26 am

Halfy, I think the First Edition RK -- 1956 to the second revised edition -- remained unchanged in both Appendix B and F here. In this scenario, Finrod is Galadriel's father, and Felagund is her brother (whose name in the Silmarillion was Inglor Felagund).

Your BB copy is 1965. I put that in . . . but for C, I just randomly chose a later edition -- above it's from a Harper Collins 2004 -- based on a reset edition Harper Collins 1994.

And back to H&S, they seems to say that Finarfin appeared in 1976, in a fourth printing of an A&U three volume paperback -- and in light of your BB copy, they seem to be referring to this A&U edition -- as they have Finarphir in A&U 1974, first and second printings . . .

. . . much later than BB, it would seem, as far as Appendix B goes.

Anyway, I'll add this much above too.

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Post by Elthir Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:32 am

halfwise wrote: ( . . .)  BTW it was all appendix F in my edition, split between "elves" and "on Translation"

Okay, now I'm (more) confused! Laughing

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Post by Eldy Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:34 am

I'm in the same boat as Halfy. As far as I can tell, in every version of the second edition there seem to be two mentions of Finrod/Finarfin/whoever in Appendix F, and none in Appendix B. I'm not sure if the first edition is different on that count.
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Post by Elthir Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:41 am

No Felagund or Finrod in Appendix B, in the intro to the Second Age?

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Post by Eldy Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:45 am

Felagund, yes; his father, no.

Shrugging


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Post by Eldy Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:48 am

I think I got confused because I was trying to keep track of both mentions of Finarfin in Appendix F, which seem to have changed at different times/in different editions, and I lost track of what exactly you meant about Appendix B.

(Man, feels like old times with all these simul posts and overlapping edits. Laughing)
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Post by Elthir Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:53 am

Ah LOL, I think I have it now.

I was still thinking First Edition Appendix B: House of Finrod . . . Finrod as father of Inglor Felagund . . . and forgetting one of the Appendix F quotes! But in any case Halfy's Finarphir quote is from Appendix F, the one before the golden house/hair description.

Sorry folks!

My post above doesn't reflect all three quotes in A,B,C!

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Post by Elthir Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:44 am

Here's a fuller version using two of my copies plus Halfy's:


The Lord of The Rings, first edition, Allen and Unwin, fifth impression, 1959

Appendix B "But the wife of Celeborn was Noldorin: Galadriel, sister of Felagund of the House of Finrod."

Appendix F I "Noblest of all was the Lady Galadriel of the royal house of Finrod, Father of Felagund, Lord of Nargothrond."

Appendix F II " . . . their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finrod."

Halfy's Ballantine Books, revised second edition, 1965

Appendix B "In Lindon south of Lune there dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of elven women. She was sister of Finrod Felegund, Friend-of-Men, once king of Nargothrond..."

Appendix F I "Noblest of all was the Lady Galadriel, of the royal house of Finarphir and sister of Finrod Felagund, King of Nargothrond."

Appendix F II "They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finrod; ..."

My HarperCollins 2004

Appendix B ". . . his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women. She was sister of Finrod Felagund, Friend-of-Men, once king of Nargothrond . . ."

Appendix F I "Noblest of all was the Lady Galadriel, of the royal house of Finarfin and sister of Finrod Felagund, King of Nargothrond."

Appendix F II " . . . golden House of Finarfin"

And argh Hammond and Scull do note that in the second edition [with respect to Appendix F I], Finarphir appears, and by the ninth printing of the Allen and Unwin second edition, Finarphir was changed by Christopher Tolkien to Finarfin. So basically I forgot Appendix F I (I do own at least one Finarphir version!), and I need to make sure I take each statement by H&S, when intended, to refer to a particular edition and passage.


In any case, after the exchange with Mr. Hicklin, for me it's evidence, as I had thought, that the change from Finrod
to some form of "Finarfin" appeared in a revised edition in Tolkien's lifetime, and so my "criticism" of JRRT stands.
And I don't have to adjust Galadriel's family tree names back to the first edition (although in one sense, I would
have liked to)!

Yet my loremaster "card" is showing some unwanted foxing here!


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Post by halfwise Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:27 pm

The earlier wording is better.

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Post by halfwise Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:46 pm

Okay, here's my appendix B:

"In Lindon south of Lune there dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of elven women. She was sister of Finrod Felegund, Friend-of-Men, once king of Nargothrond...."

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Post by Elthir Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:49 pm

Thanks I'll add it!

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:13 pm

{{ Just curious, where do our Lore Masters stand on Cirith Ungol versus Kirith Ungol. As it seems JRR and Christopher Tolkien were in disagreement on this one whilst JRR was still alive. With Chris seeming to fear that everyone would pronounce it wrong (I assume with a soft 'c' like cyril rather than a hard K sound) and kept it as Kirith on his maps at the time even after Tolkien made the change for a K to a C.
So whats your preference? And does anyone know the thoughts behind the change? }}

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Post by halfwise Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:10 pm

Nothing to add to lore, but 'C' looks better while I've heard several people use the soft version, so Christopher was right about that.

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Post by Elthir Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:42 pm

Tolkien noted that Quenya "has been spelt as much like Latin as its sounds allowed. For this reason c has been preferred to k in both Eldarin languages."


Anyway I've no problem with Kristofer Tolcien's map spelling, as it helps with sound. He also changed Narn i Chîn Húrin to try to avoid English chin.

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