A Song of Ice and Fire [2]

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Post by Eldorion Wed May 11, 2016 7:25 pm

I read a very detailed synopsis of this chapter shortly after I finished ADWD (which I didn't read until 2014, despite having read the first four books in 2009). Nice to have the option of reading it myself now, but my main takeaway before was that barely anything happened in those two chapters. Doesn't really bode well for those hoping or expecting that TWOW would be a "return to form".
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Post by halfwise Wed May 11, 2016 7:30 pm

Well, you can't really expect that he'd publish a teaser that would give away that much. The spoilers I was talking about were not that significant.

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Post by Ringdrotten Wed May 11, 2016 7:43 pm

Try the combined reading of 4 and 5, Eldo - I'd say GRRM was never "out of form", the publishers screwed him over Wink

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Post by Eldorion Wed May 11, 2016 8:25 pm

halfwise wrote:Well, you can't really expect that he'd publish a teaser that would give away that much.  The spoilers I was talking about were not that significant.

I don't either but that's not really what I was commenting about. It's a little discouraging to know that the first two chapters of Arianne's are just her traveling towards something that we hope will be interesting, given that for the last five years so many people have been saying "just wait for TWOW, where we'll finally see lots of things happening after more than a decade of build-up!"

Ringdrotten wrote:Try the combined reading of 4 and 5, Eldo - I'd say GRRM was never "out of form", the publishers screwed him over Wink

I may try that if I ever do a full re-read of the series again. I can't really blame the publishers though; the alternative would have been a 13 year wait for a 2000+ page book; not sure that would have been better. Ideally (in my book) his editor would have put her foot down but Martin is hardly the only popular author whose editor effectively bailed after success.
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Post by halfwise Wed May 11, 2016 9:22 pm

From Isaac Asimov's introduction to the Del Rey printing of Foundation, referring to the writing of Foundations Edge:

In January 1977...my editor at Doubleday suggested I do "An important book -- a Foundation novel perhaps."  I said, "I'd rather do an autobiography." And I did, 64,000 words of it.

In January 1981, Doubleday apparently lost its temper. At least Hugh O'neill, then my editor, said "Betty Prashkar wants to see you" and marched me into her office. She was then one of the senior editors, a sweet and gentle person.

She wasted no time. "Isaac" she said, "you are going to write a novel for us and you are going to sign a contract to that effect."

"Betty" I said, "I already am working on a big science book for Doubleday and I have to revise the Biographical Encyclopedia for Doubleday and --"

"It can all wait" she said. You are going to sign a contract for a novel.  What's more, we are going to give you a $50,000 dollar advance for it."

That was a stunner.  I don't like advances, they put me under too much obligation. ...
"That's too much money, Betty."
"No it isn't."
"Doubleday will lose it's shirt."
"No it won't."

I said desperately, "All right, have the contract read that I don't get any money until I inform you in writing that I have started the novel."

"Are you crazy?" She said.  "You'll never start it if that's in the contract.  You'll get $25,000 now and $25,000 when you turn in the manuscript."

"But suppose the novel's no good?"

"Now you're being silly."  And she ended the conversation.

That night, the science fiction editor at Doubleday called to express his pleasure.  "And remember, when we say 'novel', we mean a science fiction novel, and nothing else.  And when we say 'science fiction novel', we mean a Foundation novel, and nothing else."

I moaned that I was not my master anymore, and Hugh O'Neill said cheerfully "That's right."


Sigh.  Editors these days are milquetoasts.

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Post by Bluebottle Wed May 11, 2016 9:40 pm

I think George has probably eclipsed the might of any editor with Game of Thrones. I have to say though that I feel an artist has the right to use as long on his work as he feels the need to, and write exactly what he feels like. Then his audience again have the right to judge him on his choices and product. An editors job is find the middle road between the artistic concerns of the writer and the wishes of his audience, not to strong arm the writer to cow tow to public demands.

As for aFfCs and aDwDs I think they would both have been helped by dividing the books chrnologically rather than geographically. There is a book there of quite astonishing scope, but its publication meant it never really got to other readers than those who were prepared to take the extra work of the chronological approach.

Certainly there have been mistakes made on the part of Georges' camp, but having a hit like GoTs on your hands is kind of like the lightning striking three, not two, times i the same spot. I am ready to forgive George for (perhaps over)enjoying his moment as the centre of the worlds attention, who among us can really begrudge him that?

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Post by Eldorion Wed May 11, 2016 9:44 pm

Art often thrives on limitations. Editors are one such limitation. I think the books that have been published since ASOIAF started to become really popular show that removing limitations has not resulted in better books.

For as long as the first three volumes each are, they have a remarkable amount of momentum and density (in terms of interesting things happening frequently). AFFC and ADWD, to put it lightly, do not (IMO of course). I'm not sure how much reading the books in a different order than intended would alleviate that.

I did think that ADWD, after roughly the point at which it re-merged with the characters from AFFC, did regain some of that momentum, which was encouraging, but of course it was published without its intended conclusion. The lack of being able to stand on its own while still being part of a tightly-integrated whole is another difference between the first three books and the most recent two.
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Post by Bluebottle Wed May 11, 2016 9:59 pm

Yeah, I'll still hold that there is a remarkable book in aFfCs and aDwDs, and presumably the beggining of WoW. But I'm sure we can all agree how it came about was not ideal.

I'm just saying, the part of the reason for that that was the show is very human and very understandable.

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Post by Eldorion Wed May 11, 2016 10:07 pm

I'm not how we can really assess the impact of the show until TWOW is published, since ADWD was published just a few months after GOT S1.

Unless you're talking about the length of time he's taking, although I personally don't think we'd have seen TWOW by now, show or not.
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Post by Bluebottle Wed May 11, 2016 10:29 pm

Well, obviously. But George had very well publicized problems with aDwDs, and the show will have taken a lot of focus from well before its inception. Mostly though, it is to my mind the reason things haven't picked up with his writing. And I would tend to think Winds would be out by now if not for the show. So, to me its already had a proper impact. Then again, I would never have discovered this series but for the show. So, who knows. Shrugging

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Post by Eldorion Wed May 11, 2016 11:06 pm

GRRM hasn't been as forthcoming about the details of his writing process this time around (and who can blame him?) but I've always been highly skeptical of the idea that "cutting the Meereenese knot" meant that he was gonna start writing really fast. I know that's the common conception, but the way I look at is that not much has changed, as he's still dealing with a massive and unwieldy creation. Even if he's finally stopped adding new character and plotlines (which is far from a sure thing), trying to balance all the different elements gets harder the further along you go. GRRM had trouble figuring out how to get a bunch of characters to Meereen, but people think that he's going to write faster during the endgame where every plotline is converging on one or more others? If anything, he'll be going even slower, because he's facing even greater structural challenges now.

It's reassuring to be able to point at specific things like the five year gap or the Meereenese knot and say "oh, well that's why AFFC and ADWD took a long time, but he's past that now". But the nature of ASOIAF and the inherent difficulty in bringing huge, sprawling stories back together for a satisfying conclusion -- something we've talked about before in the context of ATLA -- means that in all likelihood similar issues are going to keep sprouting up with increasing regularity. And unlike Bryke with ATLA, GRRM does not have an outline to help guide him through this process.

I agree that the show has clearly slowed him down (though perhaps less so now with GRRM no longer contributing screenplays), but regardless of his other obligations and/or hobbies, I would expect the amount of effort required for each volume to continue to increase.
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Post by halfwise Wed May 11, 2016 11:59 pm

The penultimate book can't be easy. But I think the final book will be (comparitively) as he's been thinking about how things end up all along.

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Post by Bluebottle Mon May 30, 2016 1:39 am

http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/145118658477/holy-shit-grrm-read-damphair

Shocked

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Post by Eldorion Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:10 am

A bunch of people have put together a reconstruction of the whole chapter, or what is purported to be. It reads like a GRRM chapter and has some fairly big names (fandom-wise) behind it so I'm inclined to take it as legit.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TOzYKnHHFS87I2B1Mx1xaF0zoR5pjdl5bLh9Fzi6Dts/edit

I freely admit that I never cared for the Iron Islands storyline from AFFC onwards, but ... no, I really don't need this in my life right now. I almost stopped part-way through ADWD cause of the Reek torture scenes but the forward momentum of plowing through an entire huge book kept me going. Well, that and I was invested in Theon/Reek as a character. Like, I get that I might feel differently when TWOW finally comes out, but I have better things to do than read this shit. And don't even start on "that's just how things were back then". >link< (not that I 100% agree with everything said here but it's a good introduction to the torture porn != realism argument)
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Post by Ringdrotten Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:34 pm

Finished the combined reading of AFFC and ADWD a few days ago, and I've got to agree with Blue - it's a completely different book. This time I was never bored, like I was when I read AFFC the first time. Even the Cersei chapters were OK, because they take you back to King's Landing and what goes on there, and there's so much going on everywhere. It's still not perfect, but I guess it can never be when there are so many storylines and characters involved, and there's always a character you want to read more about. Anyway, this is definitely the way to read AFFC and ADWD, changed the whole story in my opinion. A reading experience out of the ordinary, absolutely recommended Smile

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Post by halfwise Sat Jun 04, 2016 4:31 pm

Hmm. Did you put numbered sticky notes on all the chapters before you began?

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Post by Ringdrotten Sat Jun 04, 2016 8:36 pm

I read it on a kindle, so I just switched between books. But there's no need to mark the chapters beforehand as long as you follow the order in blue's link a couple of pages back - bar a few exceptions it's very straight forward, all you need is both books at hand Smile

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Post by Bluebottle Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:06 am

“Ser? My lady?” said Podrick. “Is a broken man an outlaw?”

“More or less,” Brienne answered.

Septon Meribald disagreed. “More less than more. There are many sorts of outlaws, just as there are many sorts of birds. A sandpiper and a sea eagle both have wings, but they are not the same. The singers love to sing of good men forced to go outside the law to fight some wicked lord, but most outlaws are more like this ravening Hound than they are the lightning lord. They are evil men, driven by greed, soured by malice, despising the gods and caring only for themselves. Broken men are more deserving of our pity, though they may be just as dangerous.

“Almost all are common-born, simple folk who had never been more than a mile from the house where they were born until the day some lord came round to take them off to war. Poorly shod and poorly clad, they march away beneath his banners, ofttimes with no better arms than a sickle or a sharpened hoe, or a maul they made themselves by lashing a stone to a stick with strips of hide. Brothers march with brothers, sons with fathers, friends with friends. They’ve heard the songs and stories, so they go off with eager hearts, dreaming of the wonders they will see, of the wealth and glory they will win. War seems a fine adventure, the greatest most of them will ever know.

“Then they get a taste of battle.

“For some, that one taste is enough to break them. Others go on for years, until they lose count of all the battles they have fought in, but even a man who has survived a hundred fights can break in his hundred-and-first. Brothers watch their brothers die, fathers lose their sons, friends see their friends trying to hold their entrails in after they’ve been gutted by an axe.

“They see the lord who led them there cut down, and some other lord shouts that they are his now. They take a wound, and when that’s still half-healed they take another. There is never enough to eat, their shoes fall to pieces from the marching, their clothes are torn and rotting, and half of them are shitting in their breeches from drinking bad water.

“If they want new boots or a warmer cloak or maybe a rusted iron halfhelm, they need to take them from a corpse, and before long they are stealing from the living too, from the smallfolk whose lands they’re fighting in, men very like the men they used to be. They slaughter their sheep and steal their chickens, and from there it’s just a short step to carrying off their daughters too. And one day they look around and realize all their friends and kin are gone, that they are fighting beside strangers beneath a banner that they hardly recognize. They don’t know where they are or how to get back home and the lord they’re fighting for does not know their names, yet here he comes, shouting for them to form up, to make a line with their spears and scythes and sharpened hoes, to stand their ground. And the knights come down on them, faceless men clad all in steel, and the iron thunder of their charge seems to fill the world…

“And the man breaks.

“He turns and runs, or crawls off afterward over the corpses of the slain, or steals away in the black of night, and he finds someplace to hide. All thought of home is gone by then, and kings and lords and gods mean less to him than a haunch of spoiled meat that will let him live another day, or a skin of bad wine that might drown his fear for a few hours. The broken man lives from day to day, from meal to meal, more beast than man. Lady Brienne is not wrong. In times like these, the traveler must beware of broken men, and fear them… but he should pity them as well.”
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Nuance, folks.

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Post by halfwise Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:32 am

Ringdrotten wrote:I read it on a kindle, so I just switched between books. But there's no need to mark the chapters beforehand as long as you follow the order in blue's link a couple of pages back - bar a few exceptions it's very straight forward, all you need is both books at hand Smile


Actually, the problem is that GRRM never was nice enough to label chapters such as "Tyrion 6". You have to count it up yourself. This has been my main annoyance: you never can find anything again. A couple descriptive words would have been nice "Tyrion and the dwarves" for example.

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Post by Bluebottle Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:05 am

Try this. Smile They haven't updated all the editons, but still..

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Chapters_Table_of_contents

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Post by halfwise Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:04 am

Very helpful. Nod Would it have hurt George so much to do something similar? Rolling Eyes

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Post by Ringdrotten Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:49 pm

That was perhaps more helpful than my answer Laughing But as long as you make a mark where you last left off in either book you'll be fine Wink

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Post by Ringdrotten Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:57 am

Has anyone else here read the Dunk & Egg series? I wasn't quite ready to leave Westeros when I finished rereading ASOIAF, so I gave the series a shot. I almost liked these books better. They're (too) short, but very enjoyable. It feels almost like reading The Hobbit after having read LotR - lighter and more adventurous. I want more Smile

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Post by Eldorion Sat Jun 18, 2016 2:41 am

I really enjoyed the Dunk & Egg stories. I found "The Sworn Sword" really depressing in its depiction of minor feudal warfare though. The peasants in that story are generally background characters but their plight was highly unenviable. (I'm not sure that Martin's depiction of the brutalities of medieval life are necessarily as accurate as he imagines, though, nor the extent of the submissiveness of his peasants.) For the most part though I agree they are lighter and an easier read. I love delving into the history underlying a fleshed-out fictional world such as Martin's, but the characters are highly memorable and enjoyable to read in their own rights.
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Post by Ringdrotten Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:14 pm

Yeah, The Sworn Sword was pretty depressing, but it did add a new dimension to Westeros that we don't see in GoT. And I loved reading about the Targaryens, and how different they all are. You can really see what was meant by the gods' "coin-flip" concerning that family. That, and it was nice to read about knights that were actually good, or true, for once. Like I said, it felt like reading The Hobbit, and I hope he finds the time and inspiration to finish the series in the future Smile

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