The Rings of Power Post-watch Discussion (Spoilers)

By the way (spoiler alert). . .

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. . . in the episode I saw last night, I think (?) it's this same ork (shown with wife and baby) that nearly kills
ROP-Galadriel (she'd been captured by orks), before "Adar" (means "Father" in Sindarin) stops him. ROP-Galadriel then swiftly turns the tables on Adar, threatening him with some sort of pointed object, but then Adar says that they have the same adversary -- cut to ROP-Annatar in ROP-Eregion.

Wait...you saw an episode?

I've seen them all.

That doesn't mean I'm necessarily going to comment about any of it; but maybe once in a while. I think I already gave my one-word review of season one here?

If not, here it is: yuk!

I didn't expect your constitution could withstand having your Tolkien purity so sullied.

I think we nearly all dragged ourselves through the first season as a matter of honor. I don't think I have the fortitude for the second season.

I've watched all episodes as well. I just tell myself it's not Tolkien it's something similar.

The question is, having watched it and knowing for a certainty that it's not Tolkien, have you found it engaging enough to continue watching? Bit of a mixed bag for me.

{{ You are watching RoP Elthir? I don't know if I should be impressed at your fortitude or disappointed at your standards!

Not that Ive given too much thought ...but my notion on orcs breeding- its done on something close to an industrial scale and organised as such, which is why we never see females, they are in a constant state of breeding and rasing, this and the possibility that orc pregnancy lasts less time, perhaps 4-6 months is based on the fact orcs seem to be able to recover their numbers with surprising speed compared to the normal breeding patterns of humans. I suspect orc 'adulthood' comes sooner as well, with a shorter childhood and puberty, orcs probably go to war from about 10-12 years old as their main weapon in battle is not their strength or skill but sheer numbers and ferocity.
Uruk-Hai seem to be the product of breeding humans back with orcs, this would support the notion, given the two can still breed that they are corrupted elves and men, as those species can breed together. Its also possible the process does not always produce bigger stronger orcs, but also sometimes the opposite, weaker nastier humans, such as the squint-eyed southerner Sam thought looked more than half an orc at Bree.}}

If we go by what Peejers showed us, that Orcs are encapsulated in a kind of gooey sack and they are dug up from what looked like slimey, muddy earth, that hints to me of mass production with no actual physical interaction by males and females. I dont recall Tolkien even suggesting Orcs as being either male or female ? it was a given that these were thick set brutish male Orcs especially Uruk Hai's, who I felt were produced for fighting and war and for no other reason at all. Uruk Hai, Orc and maybe Goblin farming, The scene Peejers gave us of an Uruk Hai being dug up reminded me of the Matrix where 1000's of "bodies" are waiting to burst out of pods.  

Remember that Tolkien once referred to orcs being "spawned", which implies growth outside the body. But I get the feeling his thoughts on orcs were as variable as those on Galadriel.

Hmm.

I'm interested in the visuals of ROP.

Curiosity in general.

I probably wouldn't turn away "in the middle" (of seeing) a train-wreck.

Ork Reproduction

JRRT, from a letter to Mrs Munby, 1963: "There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords we naturally would not learn much about their lives. Not much was known".

Also according to Tolkien, orks reproduce after "manner of the Children of Ilúvatar"

Who are the Children? We already know how men and woman multiply of course. And with respect to Elves, Tolkien notes that it was "the act of bodily union" that achieved marriage. And we know that Elven children were "born", that Elven women have wombs (NOME), and indeed notably here, that Elves and Men can have children together.

Tolkien also relates the horribility of Men mating with Orks, producing. . .  well, see below! So anyway, basically, if we know how Men multiply, and they can produce offspring with both Elves and Orks, surely this is achieved in the usual sexual way? No?

I think "after the manner of the Children" is pretty clear on its own, with JRRT making sure the Reader knows that orks indeed multiplied sexually, like other folk.

Uruk

I won't give my full argument (here in this post, if ever) as to why I believe the Uruks/Uruk-hai are distinct from the Half-orcs, but here are a few pieces to possibly chew on:

"In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black Orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath." Appendix A

And we know the term Uruk-hai means "Ork-folk" (PE 17) -- technically it means "Great-ork-folk" considering that the word uruk came to be distinguished from snaga (Appendix F) -- and in my opinion Uruk-hai is just an in-story plural way to refer to Uruks without the -s, since that's an anglicization.

Another bit: when Tolkien writes (Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed Text X) about Saruman's breeding program he calls the results "Orc-men" and "Men-orcs" (half one thing, half the other thing), which are terms that easily relate to his term Half-orcs from The Lord of the Rings, wherein we read, for example:

"[Merry speaking]. . . And there were battalions of Men, too. Many of them carried torches, and in the flare I could see their faces. Most of them were ordinary men, rather tall and dark-haired, and grim but not particularly evil-looking. But there were some others that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree: only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were."

"I thought of him too,' said Aragorn. 'We had many of these half-orcs to deal with at Helm's Deep. It seems plain now that that Southerner was a spy of Saruman's; but whether he was working with the Black Riders, or for Saruman alone, I do not know. It is difficult with these evil folk to know when they are in league, and when they are cheating one another.'"

Anyway, there's much more concerning that topic, but my conclusion teases out as follows:

A) The Uruk-hai (anglicized plural Uruks) hail first from Mordor

2) Some Uruks begin serving Saruman

B) Saruman also breeds Orks with Men, producing tall, "man-high" kinds of Half-orks

4) Some of these Half-orks are too "ork-faced" [Merry's "goblin-faces"] to be used as spies, while others can be spies.

L) In case I forgot something

I have been called a "racist" by several people in a Lord of the Rings-adjacent Discord server for my statements. How shall I ever recover...

(The topic had moved onto the Hollywood double-standard where white cultures get diversified, while non-white cultures do not.)

halfwise wrote:The question is, having watched it and knowing for a certainty that it's not Tolkien, have you found it engaging enough to continue watching?  Bit of a mixed bag for me.

I'll keep watching till the end. There's talk of canceling the show after this series which will be a shame. Would like to see how it ends.

{{ You want another 3 series of it after this?!! }}

( he'll need therapy )

The train, almost immediately, wrenched off the tracks of a high, high bridge. It's now mid-air, nearly half-way down, a long, twisting wreckage. The hungry sea awaits below, huge grey stones hide just below the surging waves. . . and the rending metal-mess, like a smoking dragon piling down upon itself still has a way to go (at least at the moment). Having seen this much. . . I'm going to turn away from the thunderous "denouement"?

On a better note: I like a couple of the costumes in ROP. Emphasis on "a couple" out of very many! Plus in one scene, they had "ROP-Galadriel" wear her hair upon her head like a crown.

Just my opinions about the train. Generally speaking, see my sig by Mrs Figg.