We're all doomed! Doomed I say- the Corona virus thread for panicking in!

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Post by Bluebottle Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:04 am

The Norwegian health authorities are seriously considering a ZeroCovid-approach for future pandemics. That would consist in shutting down society completely (beyond essential services) for about 5-6 weeks to get the level of the virus down to zero. Calls to open up more has been raised repeatedly throughout the pandemic for whatever laudable reason fits, but all it has led to so far is a new heavier round of virus outbreaks and new more contagious variants. Still, we keep shutting down partly and opening up because it is necessary for whatever laudable reason expecting a different result. There are several points in time where these outbreaks probably could have been stopped, not by opening up, not by our current middle way, but by short term harsher measures. We failed to stop the virus spreading from China by comparatively very few people. We failed to shut down properly the first time, living in a dreamland of things like heard-immunity. We failed to stop the spread of the English/Alfa variant early, and we failed to stop the spread of the Indian/Delta variant.

So rather than leaving people to their chances (opening up completely) or our middle way that has led to a long dragged out struggle (Oslo had eight months of lock-down, and we are the lucky ones in Europe as far as cases and deaths go) what was needed was probably harsher shorter term measures. That has not seemed possible in our interconnected world, where the interests of the international economy seems to trump all. Add a whole lot of political mismanagement and you have a crisis that could probably have been mitigated in so many ways.

Luckily the vaccines do work very well, even against the new variants. So, get vaccinated, and the sooner the better.

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Post by halfwise Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:24 pm

We need the whole world to shut down all at once for 2 weeks. Then have rapid response tracking crews for remaining flare-ups and border crossing embargoes for countries that didn't get the memo. A short but intense period will fix things with minimal economic impact.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:33 pm

{{ Blue whilst I completely agree youd never get countries like the US to sign up to such a thing- theyd be calling it an attack on their freedoms and independence. Rest of the world cant even get America to agree on sensible climate accords that have global effects. America has no sense of wider global obligations, or of working with others save where it suits their own immediate political needs. The mentality is entriely based on individualism not cooperation and community- at least at a political and economic level its a selfish self-serving nation.
And Britain under the Tories is not much better as Brexit has indicated, Boris will happily self-harm the nation for short-term political gain. He was stil letting planes in and out from India long after the Delta variant was an obvious problem there purely for political and financial reasons and now its the dominant strain here sweeping through the nation. }}

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Post by halfwise Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:14 pm

50% of new Delta variant cases in Israel are among the vaccinated, though it's not clear if those who have only one dose are considered vaccinated.  Also less severe in those who are vaccinated. Since Israel is 57% fully vaccinated, with nearly equal probabilities of being vaccinated or not these numbers mean there is not a lot of protection from infection.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/israel-says-delta-variant-infecting-110300111.html

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:25 pm

{{ The Delta variant is super dangerous. Heres Scotlands cases from the latest fgures- we had it damn near under control in the spring, then the Delta variant hit us and now look where we are. }}

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Post by David H Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:52 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ Rest of the world cant even get America to agree on sensible climate accords that have global effects. }}

I can't disagree {{though I may not agree Shrugging }} How can you expect us to agree with the whole world when we can't even agree among ourselves?



{{The mentality is entriely based on individualism not cooperation and community- at least at a political and economic level its a selfish self-serving nation. }}

I do disagree strongly on this though. The America I know is ALL about community and cooperation at the community level, but we're mostly defining our communities in terms of thousands, hundreds, or even dozens. This is the level where a lot of things like so called "herd immunity" can actually have value when you keep the herds small. For just one example, our little rural county is made up of many such herds/communities, and although you'd think from our politics we'd have a very low vaccination rate, we're actually at 68.5% vaccinated for those over 16, and it's all voluntary because people are choosing to get vaccinated to protect others they know on a first-name basis rather than some hypothetical nameless statistical "community". If it was all about individualism I'd bet we'd be around 25-30%.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:11 pm

{{ Thats why I made the distinction of 'at a political and economic level' not at the level of individual communities or even individual Americans. But America has long ceased to be an outward looking country working in cooporation with others at a political and economic level. Trumps America First policy, still hugely popular it seems in the US, is an obvious outward reflection of this mentality which scorns cooperation or compromise. }}

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Post by Mrs Figg Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:15 pm

China and New Zealand are the only way to solve this. They locked down hard and fast and stopped all travel, now they are reaping the benefits. The very worst was Johnson's half arsed approach which at the beginning just let it rip and focused on herd immunity, idiotic eat out to help out, coutless un-lockdowns, lax travel restrictions and 170,000 deaths later, damaged economy and third wave.
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Post by halfwise Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:35 pm

Going back to David's point, I've found that in America the difference between conservative and liberal is the difference in boundaries between "Us" versus "them". Conservatives draw a smaller boundary, and are more cooperative within that boundary. Those outside the boundary get short shrift. Liberals would like to say there is no "them", but with such a large boundary the cooperative spirit can be diluted.

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Post by Bluebottle Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:41 pm

Sydney is closing down hard as we speak in response to around 100 cases. I do not know if I can see the economic logic in all these false dawns (opening up too much, too quickly, closing down as little as possible), but my knowledge of economic logics might be lacking.

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Post by halfwise Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:28 pm

The universal Australian approach to epidemic has been to close down hard.  I agree with closing down hard, but I part ways with the Aussies in that I think it should be only for a few weeks (though sealing the borders should be long term). They close down for months.

By comparison, the response to an American style mass shooting decades ago was to confiscate everyone's guns.  See a problem, deal with it.

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Post by Mrs Figg Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:11 pm

The Delta virus is 18% here, its a race against the vaccines.
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Post by halfwise Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:20 pm

We will have Republican states rampant with Delta, Democratic states with milder cases. I'm not sure if the effects of politics on belief in science is stronger in any other country. There may be stronger idealogical effects on everyday life such as Iran, North Korea or Afghanistan, but I doubt that will affect vaccine hesitancy to the same extent.

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Post by Mrs Figg Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:41 pm

yep countries where the QAnon and anti-vaxx movement has rooted is probably most at risk, ironically N Korea probably wouldn't have many anti-vaxxers, them not being allowed to access the internet very much and being forced to do whatever the dictator wants. I don't think Muslim countries have had a problem with vaccine uptake but could be wrong. I think the anti-vaxxers are losing the argument in the UK when they turn up to vaccine centres they get laughed at.
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Post by Mrs Figg Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:30 pm

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Post by Amarië Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:45 am

Finally my turn, I just got my first jab with Pfizer.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:04 am

{{ Good news Amarie! Hope it doesnt give you too rough a time- but its worth it. }}

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Post by halfwise Wed Aug 18, 2021 11:56 am

I didn't realize Norway was so far behind with vaccines. Glad you're getting protected.

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Post by Mrs Figg Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:30 pm

Thumbs Up good stuff
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Post by Amarië Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:47 pm

Yeah, we hoped so long to get at least our first jab before the summer, but my/our age-group kept getting pushed back as the priority changed.
And then Oslo and regions around had to have priorty because of rising covid numbers. Now it's ages 40-44 and 18-24, leaving just the 25-39 group. So... it's not too bad I guess.

We're a little annoyed that the Osloians could get fully vaccinated and go on vacatio abroad this summer and - most important for those who live
close to the border - drive to Sweeden and buy cheep bacon and pepsi max (without having to go to quarantine).

But we had mostly good weather this year, last summer holidays was cold and wet. Most covid outbreaks seemed to happen around home after we had left. The big thunderstorm missed us, so did the very heavy rain. Also, the border had 9 hours long queues. Germany had those huge floods around the time where we'd normally be there, for example to visit Legoland. So there's not much to complain about!

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Post by Mrs Figg Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:43 pm


slap laugh last thing he said is the funniest thing I have heard in ages.

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Post by halfwise Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:46 pm

The ONLY thing I can say in Biden's defense is that not many people expected the Taliban to be able to just waltz into power so quickly. But even so, they should have had all the collaborating nationals set up ready to go before the military pulled out. I was expecting so much better from this administration.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:08 pm

{{ this started with Trump cutting a totally terrible and shit deal with the Taliban to withdraw purely as he thought it would be a vote winner right before the election. And then its been carried out by Biden. Problem with both of them is after 9/11 the international community pulled together, we came to the US aid, we spent money and blood on this for 20 years, and America pulled out without consulting a single ally, putting all allies in danger and in harms way and all those Afghan who helped us, and has left no time to get everyone safely out. That isnt going to bode well in the fututre when the US needs allies to rally round.
Boris also bears a heavy responsibility for British lives and those working with us in Afghanistan as we knew from when Trump unilateraly cut the deal with the Taliban that this was coming, and he did nothing to prepare for it. In fact the Foreign Sec was on holiday when it went down and left instructions not to bother him but to delegate everything to junior ministers.}}

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Post by Mrs Figg Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:52 pm

Not only was Raab on holiday he got all arsy when he was challenged. How arrogant.
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Post by halfwise Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:00 pm

How big is Britain's involvement in Afghanistan anyway? If miniscule I can see not being concerned with it.

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