All New Who

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:39 am

{{ Well might be one down Figg! The Daily Mirror is reporting that Jodie is leaving at the end of next series (which is already been shortened to only 8 episodes including the 'seasonal' special).

'Jodie Whittaker is quitting at the end of the next Doctor Who series, when she will regenerate into the 14th Time Lord. The 38-year-old has told bosses she intends to stick to the traditional rule of leaving after three stints in the TARDIS, like the majority of her predecessors.

One insider said: “It’s all very hush-hush but it is known on set that Jodie is leaving and they are gearing up for a regeneration. Her departure is top secret but at some point over the coming months the arrival of the 14th Doctor will need to be filmed. It’s very exciting.”
Insiders claim Whittaker is keen to take on other roles...but ­showrunner Chris Chibnall is to remain.'- Mirror

Pity about Chibbers, Jodie was never convincing as the Doctor to me, I have never believed her and her acting has not convinced me she has a handle on the role, her decision to not watch any of her predecessors I think was a big mistake. But a huge part of the blame for that lies at Chibnalls writing too, he never defined her Doctor in writing for her, and worse his writing applies to everything in the show at the moment not just how poorly and nebulously he has written her Doctor. If Chibbers is staying then they need to hire a much better script editor to maybe help set things right. Just changing Doctor wont save things, the core problem is Chibnall. }}


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Post by Pettytyrant101 Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:10 am

{{{ 'If I was Chibbers, what I'd do. What I'd tell him if I could.
A longish drunken ramble, because its New Year, technically still, it doesn't count as the 4th if I haven't gone to bed yet, or if I'm still drunk, which I am so that's lucky.'
 drunken Spoilers if not up to date with New year special and last series.

Let's assume all we know so far is true- that is, 13 will regenerate at the end of the series, there are only 8 episodes in the series including the special, Yaz will remain as companion and will be joined by Scouse comic and comedy panel show attendee John Bishop as a 2nd companion.

We also know that the Timeless Child thing went down with fandom like a lead balloon, and that with the casual viewer put them off watching as numbers fell in viewing with its lore-centric, naval gazing exposition.

If you think back to how often and cleverly RTD would drop in lore stuff, slowly building it up over a series to a reveal that was integrated into the main plot and characters stories. He did it with Time Lords, the Master, Cybermen, even the Daleks, and he added to the lore with the Time War.

Moffat was the same when he introduced Missy's Heaven concept it turned out everyone was being uploaded to a Time Lord Data Matrix slice. But in the set up of Missy's Heaven we learned it was Time Lord, it was part of something called the Matrix and it could store conscious minds. Several episodes later we learn exactly what the Matrix is when the Doctor leads Clara into it, but the ground work is laid long before so it doesn't require a massive exposition laden speech explaining it all from the Doctor when they do get there.

The Timeless Child episode has been described best by one reviewer as being 'The Master gives the Doctor a 20 minute power-point display that ends in the line “you're adopted.”
But we are stuck with the concept, and as confirmed in the New Years special the death particle thingy cyberbloke had wiped out all life on the planet, so not only Time Lords gone but all Gallifreans, save possibly Rassilon whom 12 exiled from the planet with the rest of the old High Council.

So what do you do about it in seven series episodes and a seasonal special?
First take your inspiration from source, the Doctor-

'Never give up, never give in, never cruel nor cowardly. No TARDIS, no screwdriver, two minutes to spare. Who da man? Its squeaky bum time! Allons-y, Geronimo, Gallifrey Stands!''

Ok you've 8 episodes Chibbers so that is short enough to write one long piece that also has individual stories, similar to how Face the Raven and Heaven Sent are part of the same narrative but completely different episodes telling their own self contained tale too. Or Extermis as part of the Monk trilogy.

You have to give more definition to Yaz, to Yaz and the Doctor, Yaz and the new older male companion. Thats got to be your core trio for stories and emotional character development. Keep cast in stories small, focus on those three, with a few other important people per episode, not half a dozen supporting cast to write for plus your main cast.

Sshowing not telling so the episodes events should be set up so that Yaz and Scouser is either having reason to question how the Doctor does something, or to be moved by her sheer joy at discovering something new, or seeing beauty where everyone else only sees terror, or her sheer exuberance at saving lives- think 10's reaction to almost anything new, 12's excitement at being presented with a problem he didn't immediately know the answer to, 9's 'Everyone lives Rose! Just this once, everyone lives!' moment, and how the companion story in the episode is woven into those moments.
Jodie is two series in and has no such moments, nor do the companions, and these moments can help better define the companions by how they react to them. That goes equally for being critical of the Doctor when her alien morals and vastly longer life experience and intelligence push her over a human moral line.
She hasn't had anything of that to work with either.

Step Two. Talking of editing, you can cut half your script out and throw it away, what you are left with is better.
An example fresh in mind from Resolution, in the Dalek clone factory the question arises of what has become of all the human workers, they are indicated towards tanks attached to pipes feeding into the clones, the pipe is broken and everyone looks on in horror is slimy nastiness drips from the tubes. The answer to the question is clear, they have been liquefied and fed to the growing Dalek clones.
Only for Captain Jack to say “They liquefied them, and fed them to the Dalek clones!'.

Its utterly redundant the visual storyline has already imparted that entire sentence. It can go at no harm and some improvement to the scene whose time can be better used to focus on the horror and disgust (and should be underlaid with fury in the Doctor) on their faces in response to it.
Chibnall your Who is full of this, the Doctor has on several occasions now explained to her companions what she is doing as we watch her do it. Or she has enacted her plan already, offscreen, and as we watch it happen she explains what she did and what is happening. Stop it! Dont tell us show us her doing it.
And give her a back bone. She has no input into most stories of note, give her brains back to solve and work outmore things, show her being more than bubbly, friendly and awkward.

Step 3. Don't give her any more preachy speeches that are direct to audience and sound like lectures. It endears her to no-one as no-one likes feeling like they are being talked down to and lectured at, particularly not children who are a core part of your audience.

When Moffat was accused by journalists, all adults, of making Who to difficult and complex and hard to follow, he responded, “Ask a 7 year old.”
And he was right, classic Who told a lot of complex tales, kids lapped it up because it was a journey of discovery.
Who steals from everywhere so my first introduction to Frakensteins monster concepts came from Brain of Morbeus, decades before I saw the original Thing from Another World, or Carpenter's remake I had seen Seeds of Doom. They worked because they borrowed ideas and concepts from the originals and put them in a Who context, but they never dumbed down the concepts, or over explained them, they let the fears and horrors and ideas come through in different form, so they worked as intended in the original telling of them. A good Who episode as a kid could leave you going to bed with some whole new concept to deal with, whether it was Infernos alternate realities, Green Deaths idea that its possible to screw up the environment and planet completely creating monsters, or oncoming nightmares when the lights go of about the body horror of slowly being turned into a mouldy, covered plant monster in a freezing isolated Antartica.

Children are one of the hardest audiences to write for because they compare it to nothing but itself, they are either enthused, engaged, enthralled by it, or bored, annoyed and fed up with it. There is no real middle ground, Brain of Morbeus either makes you feel all the things your supposed to as a kid, horror, fear, grotesqueness at the base concept, with the comfort of the Doctor being there and he always wins in the end even when its sad too. Or it fails and doesn't work.
And a large part of making it work is not to talk down to your audience, they will go with it so long as the notes are been hit, the 'thrills, spills and chills.'
All three of those have been missing in the last 2 series.

Step 4. Oddly the Timeless Child is probably the easiest to fix from where it stands. Few things to fix in it however- Gallifrey being dead, the Doctor being the Timeless Child, explaining the Ruth Doctor.

Its seems a lot but the solution is simple, the Timeless Child is the Master, their using of him as a child over and and over by killing him over and over to eek out the secrets of regeneration from him gives him the motivation for wanting to destroy Gallifrey, especially as it was the one person he thought loved her when she was found, her adopted mother who'd did it all to her. Then watching as her mother with her stolen power set herself up as one of the Three founding Figures of Gallifrey alongside Omega and Rassilon. Rising in power and wealth and glory as he got nothing.

We know he was obsessed with the idea that the Doctor was special all along, twist that so he is the special one, the reason for his wrath and madness, he is the source of all Gallifrey's power, yet he is the outcast, his past kept from him, his roots of who he really is lost to him, when he should be Master of All. So he will show them, he will kill them all except his old friend the Doctor, who he will torment as he knows well enough she would blame herself for what he did to Gallifrey and torture herself over who she really is and what she really stands for. And it would make her utterly alone in the universe again. Make her believe she was betrayed, that she is not really one of them and they deserved their fate for what they had done to her- make her more like the Master or more the Timelord Victorious, give Jodie a major shocking wobble to throw where she casts of the Doctor mantle as 12 briefly did when he threatened Me, but more sustained, let her go way to far for a bit in response and for her companions to bring her back.
After all that's all the Master really wants of the Doctor, to have their friend back, but on their terms. And it better links the Missy and current Masters together.

We also know the Master found out about the Timeless Child by hacking into the Matrix and finding the hidden information. So it was whilst there he altered the files to make it seem it was the Doctor who was the Timeless Child.

This can then be used to explain the Ruth Doctor was not a former Doctor but a former Master, disguised by the Matrix filter as we saw done in the Irish police stuff, explaining why Ruth had such good and violent fighting skills, why she was being chased by both Juddon police and the Time Lord secret service, and why they'd try to recruit him whilst he was Ruth, and just as cowardly as his Time War regeneration had used a Chameleon Arch to escape and hide away as human.

So that would sort that. So the Timeless Child revelation should be sprinkled throughout the 8 episodes, they will reach their climax only in the special when the Doctor will also regenerate.

What about all the Time Lords? Well that's not to hard either, Rassilon and and the High Council and whatever loyal attendees did not turn to supporting the Doctor were exiled off world, so not affected, they will be seeking out their revenge on the Master. Not only that when the Master's destruction of Gallifrey began they can have used their TARDISes to get as many people off-world as possible which given they are time machines with effectively infinite size interiors that should be quite a few.

The climax in the special should be the culmination of these story threads- the Timeless Child really being the Master, and the Time Lords that remain under Rassilon deciding that so long as the Master and Doctor live this will never end, and wiping them both out would be to the better good and safety of the future universe- have a bunch of Cyberlords also have survived by getting out to their ship before the particle went off, giving you a nice spectacle climax to your special where the Time Lords come back to Gallifrey to reclaim it with the Doctor and companions, from the Master and the Cyberlords. It can give a major triumph before the reveal the Time Lords plan to kill them both, this can lead into the regeneration of 13.

Step 5. Just Yaz and new guy to redeem now, as Ive mentioned she should be better defined by how she reacts to the Doctors decisions, more challenging and confrontational about some of those decisions, and more joyful and excited just to be along for the ride with the Doctor- less dour Yaz more happy Yaz, pitched somewhere between Roses over enthusiasm and Donna's genuine often simple joy at being on another planet, meeting a new race, seeing the universe and all of Time in the TARDIS with the Doctor. She needs to appear to be enjoying it more.

The new companion played by John Bishop seems to be white van man, working class Liverpool type, probably a tradesman of some sort, plumber, roofer, brickie, something like that.
So I'd go for a modern take on the 2nd Doctors companions Jamie and Zoe. Jamie was a bit old fashioned, rough round the edges, gentlemanly and kind but also at times over bearing in his overprotective way with Zoe, which sometimes allowed for both genuine shows of compassion, worry, fear for her from Jamie, and gave Zoe something to get annoyed about him and to pull him up when necessary. But over the piece getting to know him knowing his heart was in right place, his feelings for her well being, friendship genuine, if sometimes clumsily given. Somewhere about a Han Solo type, but without the scifi a charming, friendly working class man, who will do what's necessary to get by, but good underneath it all. A touch of Sam Gamgee about him too in his loyalty to others.

John Bishop is a comedian and given him some tension stuff to play off with Yaz over how he conducts himself can give some comedic moments too.

I'd also write him as a one series companion, allowing you to build up his roguish down to earth likeability, and to see his weaker character flaws too, and he should go out in the finale saving Yaz and the Doctor by choice, stubbornly being who he is to the end. Falling where he stands. 8 episodes gives the time to bring all these together as thematic threads throughout, and as narrative teases to sprinkle throughout leading to the finale.

Step 5. Break your 8 into story parts, set up you have 2 episodes for, introduce your characters, few basics about them, and build an idea of how they at first view each other, otherwise normal Who adventures to ease them in. No big arc stuff.

Episodes 3-4 a two parter giving a mid series mini-finale that sets up the Time Lords survival, Rassilons wanting to enlist the Doctor help to retake Gallifrey, her meeting the thousands and thousands of ordinary Gallifreans, including the people we saw in 12th Hell Bent episode at the barn who got off and her now on a crappy planet at end of universe. And her discovery the Master really is the Timeless Child and the Time Lords plan to keep the ordinary people on the crap planet and selective breed them for only the best for New Gallifrey.
In discovering this she flees the Time Lords and their plans to retake Gallifrey.

Ep5,6,7- back to adventures and no arc stuff save brief mentions of it that show the Doctor has not let it go despite her attempts to do her usual and run from the problem in the TARDIS and have adventures.

Ep8- series climax and cliffhanger as events lead the Doctor to rejoin Rassilon and retake Gallifrey and bring the Master down once and for all. Big battle between Time Lords and Cyberlords and Master, reveal that Time Lords are then going to kill them both. New companion dies to prevent Doctors and Yaz's deaths. Master seemingly is killed however (of course).

Doctor dies at Rassilons literal hand but she is just giving herself as a distraction while Yaz enacts her plan.
Jodie can end her time, with Yaz present as viewer surrogate, telling Rassilon whose trying to kill her in a big Doctor speech that while he was trying to kill her Yaz sent the message, and she told the ordinary people of Gallifrey the Council had given all its powers to the people, and to come home. And that it was all possible because one ordinary man, no Lord High President or even Lord, just an ordinary man gave his life to make it possible. And that now the ordinary people of Gallifrey are coming back to reclaim it as theirs, and they probably wont be best pleased to see Rassilon.
Gallifreans can come and kill Rassilon, Doctor gets her moments with Yaz and regenerates.

Oh and put it back on xmas day. Its a regeneration its special it needs to be a xmas day episode again, similar to 10' regen episode.

So there you have it, make a connected 8 part story but where the arc elements are in the character building in stand-alone or small hints at the direction, combined with big spectacle full arc episodes, solve the Timeless Child and Master threads and restore Gallifrey in some fashion. Tying up all the Jodie era threads, and then sack youself leavng a blank slate for the new showrunner to come in and begin from.
A big bittersweet xmas day finale with a climatic showdown visual effects treat between Cyberlords and Time Lords, and a character driven backbone to it for everyoneinolved all with a stake, and one companion death and a regeneration, but both in the end in triumph over tyranny.

That's how I'd recommend doing it, whilst drunk at least  drunken in broad outline with the time that's left. }}

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Post by Amarië Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:11 am

^ This. I want this. Crying or Very sad


I watched with Finrod and daugther Em (13yo).

Two positive things about the episode.
1) It was almost Who-like, considering that this is Chibber's Who. Em liked it because she has never seen Who before, and that is the only way it can be enjoyed.
2) Paired with Moffat's written story that Petty linked to a while back, 13's bedtime story made me fond 13. Me and Em awwed and melted. This means I like the 13 that could have been. Yey? Shrugging

Can never forgive.
1) Maximal extermination.
2) Just a spare Tardis.

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Post by Mrs Figg Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:52 pm

I like John Bishop lets hope they make him a cheeky-chappie with serious undercurrents. I can imagine he can do edgy.

I bet you a million dollars the next Doctor will be the Black female Doctor. Either that or a Black female Lesbian with one leg and a twitch.

I have just discovered how I think fake Jodie Doctor has played her whole series, it is one of those annoying children's entertainers/minders in those cheap and cheerful Summer holiday camps like Butlins. All shouty and smiley and super-bouncy. Complete with suitable 'quirky' clothing to appeal to the kids. Got all the subtlety of a pratfall and a cream cake in the face


Last edited by Mrs Figg on Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by halfwise Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:54 pm

Laughing

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:24 pm

{{ A similar thought Figg that has struck one other person at least, the equally inspired comment I read elsewhere described her as being like "one of the shit Blue Peter presenters."

Amarie- the first Who you exposed your child to was THIS? Shocked Why? Mad You surey have to make it up to her by showing her something actually good now Nod }}

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Post by Amarië Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:25 pm

Laughing Oh she was throughly warned by both of us, but she wanted to watch with us. At least this one had some vague resemblance to Who. Aaaand she may have been exposed to some ranting later.

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Post by Mrs Figg Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:22 pm

I read in a Guardian comment, "why has Eastenders got a Dalek?"

nuff said.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:05 am

{{{ Laughing 'Warning! Political analogue approaching!' }}


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Post by Amarië Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:19 am

lol! Brilliant!

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Post by malickfan Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:08 pm

https://arcdigital.media/the-thirteenth-doctor-is-the-new-sixth-doctor-heres-why-a1039689ad9f

agree with most of this article.

Not sure I could see Jodie doing Big Finish though, I don't get the impression she as big a fan/emotionally attached to the role as some of the Doctors (and without sounding rude, she was already a much more well known and established actor than Colin Baker-Big Finish for Colin is returning to and developing his best known role he was forced to quit before he wanted to, Jodie is most likely leaving of her own accord and I doubt she'll struggle for work afterwards), i kinda get the impression she took the job mainly because Chibnall was her mate rather than the role being a dream job.

I do wonder if she feels the same way some of the critics do at all? I.e had she noticed that her Doctor is less well defined than some of the others? And the clunky dialogue?....

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Post by Mrs Figg Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:04 pm

"distant PEWING" Laughing superb!
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Post by Pettytyrant101 Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:50 pm

{{ Not sure Id entriley agree with that one Malick. Its not wrong on everything but 12 had character development nort inconsistency, its easy to follow through his three series! 6 had an idea and personality from the start, it was delibretly abrasive and unlikeable with the plan to mellow him over time much like the 1st Doctor but the BBC axed him before they got going. The Cartmel masterplan was not like the Timeless Child- Cartmel himself has said so, their plan was to drop little hints and notions that the Doctor had been about longer than we knew to reinstall some mystery around the character, not to make him some weird super alien whose not even a Timelord. And Id also argue Jodies 13 is not the main character in her own show, thats a lage part of the problem, her Doctor is so illdefined, so inconstiquencal, and her morality so different episode to episode after 2 series I still dont know who she is or what she stands for and against. }}

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Post by malickfan Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:04 pm

This is interesting, Big Finish are adapting a script Russel T Davies wrote in the 1980's into an audio:

https://twitter.com/BBCTheOneShow/status/1351245789415305216

Featuring the 6th Doctor and Mel (not sure if this was something he was formally comissioned to write, or just something he sent into the production office on spec).

Will be interesting to see (well, hear) how authentic it is to the 1980's or whether they update it to better reflect RTD's growth and tone as a writer.

Colin Baker only had 11 stories on TV, but if my maths is correct that now means Big Finish have made 13 of his unmade stories into audioplays! (and there's still a couple of known scripts/storylines that haven't been adapted by Big Finish yet)

IIRC RTD also discussed a storyline with Moffat for the 12th Doctor, but i'm not sure if a script/story treatment was ever actually started.

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Post by malickfan Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:50 pm

Eddie Izzard confirmed on twitter than he auditioned for the 11th Doctor.

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I think what comes out of a pig's rear end is more akin to what Peejers has given us-Azriel 20/9/2014
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Post by Pettytyrant101 Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:40 pm

{{ Izzards name has floated about a few times-and is again now Jodie is offski. Not sure my self he cerrtainly can act but Im not sure folk wouldnt see Eddie Izzard and not the Doctor.
Imalways a bit in two minds about casting well known folk for the role.Eccelston and Capaldi were probably the best known actors prior to casting, but neither had been in a lot of high profile roles. Even the Thick of It was somewhat of a niche audience.
Peter Davidson was probably the best known actor to take the role, as he was just off the back of starring in All Creatures Great and Small based on the James Herrior books, and it was massively popular at the time. Pertwee was well known, but as a character actor so that helped.
Tennant and Smith were both realtively young unknown actors at the time of their debuts. And the bulk of the classic Doctors were also relatively unknown prior to the job.}}

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Post by malickfan Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:53 am

I'm not sure if they'll go for another unknown actor like Matt Smith again, the show was almost cancelled in 2010 after Tenant left so I think the BBC figured they may as well take a risk with casting the role if they weren't sure it would last much longer.

But last it did, here we are 10 years later and it still brings in a reliable amount of viewers (if less than it once did) and is popular/well known internationally, it's in a comfortable but middle of the road place right now with viewers/critics so they won't want to rock the boat too much. I'm guessing the next Doctor will be a popular character actress in their late 30's from a ethnic minority background.

Though I hardly watch TV anymore so I couldn't name any potential candidates.

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The Thorin: An Unexpected Rewrite December 2012 (I was on the money apparently)
The Tauriel: Desolation of Canon December 2013 (Accurate again!)
The Sod-it! : Battling my Indifference December 2014 (You know what they say, third time's the charm)

Well, that was worth the wait wasn't it  Suspect


I think what comes out of a pig's rear end is more akin to what Peejers has given us-Azriel 20/9/2014
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Post by Mrs Figg Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:23 pm

well after we have had a woman and a Black woman, the next move was obviously a transvestite. A transvestite lesbian who will get a crush on Yaz. Eddie Izzard is a natural progression.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:22 pm


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Post by malickfan Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:13 pm

I only realised the other day I share my birthday with Tom Baker

And, erm what is that Cyberman on the left in the video above doing squatting like that? Laughing

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The Thorin: An Unexpected Rewrite December 2012 (I was on the money apparently)
The Tauriel: Desolation of Canon December 2013 (Accurate again!)
The Sod-it! : Battling my Indifference December 2014 (You know what they say, third time's the charm)

Well, that was worth the wait wasn't it  Suspect


I think what comes out of a pig's rear end is more akin to what Peejers has given us-Azriel 20/9/2014
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Post by Pettytyrant101 Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:52 pm

{{ Cyber-dump. Very Happy }}

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Post by Mrs Figg Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:36 pm

I read that RTD wants Who to be like the Marvel Universe and have lots of spin offs. Now if he was involved and pitched the idea for the new shows I think that would be a fabulous idea.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:50 am

{{ I always felt they should have done that rather than change the Doctors gender- which is just a gimmick. There are plenty female characters in the Who verse they could tell stories around, the Doctors daughter, Susan his granddaughter, Bernice Summerfield from the radio plays and novels, River, Ace, even a  Missy or the Rani series from the villain point of view could be good. And they could have left the main show alone instead of tinkering with a 50 odd year winning formula. }}

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Post by chris63 Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:58 pm


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Post by Forest Shepherd Wed Feb 03, 2021 6:23 am

Why the bloody hell would the next Doctor be played by a woman???

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