Tolkien related video's.

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Post by halfwise Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:48 pm

interesting, I didn't associate's Gandalf's secret fire of Anor with Eru's imperishable flame, at least not so directly.

Where does the ratio of 9.5 Valian years to earth years come from?

Wait, what's the exact relationship between Utumno, Angband, and Thangorodrim? I need to look this up.

Thanks Chris - I can't start my day until I feel I have picked up something new about the world. The news failed me, but Middle Earth stepped in.

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Post by Elthir Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:26 am

Hi Halfy

With respect to where (as in "what text") the number comes from, the ratio of 1 VY = 9.582 SYs hails from the Annals of Aman, Morgth's Ring. Tolkien wrote the later Annals with this ratio in mind, but even later, seems to have wanted to alter the ratio quite notably, to 1 VY = 1 yén (144 Sun Years).

(yén (plural yéni) for "Elvish Long Year" is attested in the Appendices, and Galadriel's lament)

If Tolkien indeed wanted to simply change the ratio for a new Tale of Years of The First Age (which was the seeming idea, as the Annals expanded and moved closer to the Quenta Silmarillion tradition), the time between each "year" would notably lengthen of course . . . and some argue this is problematic, especially with respect to the Noldorin Rebellion, although perhaps Tolkien intended to alter at least certain events with the greater number in mind.

Think of Maedros' captivity for example: did Tolkien really intend for him to hang from VY 1498 (VY 1500: Fingolfin and Folk cross the Grinding Ice) to SY 5, with 144 in mind? If so . . . well that's awesome!

But in any case, remember this was originally written with 9.582. Already awesome!

But I digress!

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Post by chris63 Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:59 pm


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Post by halfwise Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:37 am

Interesting final point I never thought about.

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Post by Elthir Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:38 pm

The Celebrimbor video states that he ended up in Gondolin at one point, became a great jewel smith likely working under Enerdhil, and that during this time in Gondolin the Elessar is created, and so on . . .

But as I see this, the "Celebrimbor of Gondolin" idea comes before Tolkien made Celebrimbor a Feanorean, and Lord of Eregion. Thus, to my mind anyway, I question that any Celebrimborian sojourn to Gondolin occurred. And if I'm correct that the son of Curufin never went to Gondolin, we can still have two internal versions of the Elessar, if we preserve:

Internal scenario 1:

Olorin brings Enerdhil's jewel to Galadriel

Incidentally, the video later says that Gandalf brought the jewel with him in the Third Age -- I used to wonder at this, as Galadriel could employ Nenya at this time, and I have now come to agree with myself that Olorin came with the original stone in the Second Age (at least as one of the two possible internal versions here), rather than Gandalf in the Third Age.)

Or internal scenario 2:

There were two Elessars, and Celebrimbor of Eregion makes the second, as he does in any case in the other internal option.

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Post by halfwise Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:55 pm

Not sure what you mean by "internal" scenarios.

I don't hold with Gandalf carrying around jewelry - so he carries an Elessar, but when Cirdan gives him a ring Gandalf then tries to pass off the Elessar to Galadriel who refuses it because she already has a ring?  Why would Gandalf be carrying this second one which is described as "less potent" than the first - seems unlike him to be juggling all this stuff. He's the Grey Pilgrim, not a street peddler.

And in his Olorin incarnation I've never heard of him visiting middle earth in the second age (except as a hidden spirit), where does that come from?

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Post by Elthir Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:46 am

By internal I just mean that both scenarios are meant to be "in story" . . . as opposed to Tolkien revising scenario 1 to scenario 2 (external). Anyway, after Tolkien notes that Glorfindel had become a friend and follower of Olórin in Valinor (JRRT, Last Writings, Glorfindel II, The Peoples Of Middle-Earth), he notes:

"That Olórin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this."

And I note in the Elessar text that JRRT uses the name Olórin throughout, so, I'm thinking that Tolkien was possibly thinking that Olórin visited Galadriel here, in some form, before the Third Age . . .  I arrived here after questioning me for some time about why Galadriel says what she says in the "only one Elessar" scenario . . .

. . .  because if it was Gandalf bringing the stone to her in the Third Age, Galadriel had Nenya to actually preserve stuff!

However she couldn't employ her Ring in the Second Age, as Sauron was still bouncing around with the One -- so at this earlier time, the gift of the Elessar arguably helped in some measure with respect to her desire.

Or something.

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Post by halfwise Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:15 pm

Though it's obvious I keep forgetting that the Elves couldn't use their rings in SA. Must have been irritating, like that piece of chocolate cake locked in the fridge you've told yourself you can't have. Makes sense she would jump at the Elessar.

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Post by chris63 Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:09 am


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Post by Elthir Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:06 pm

Check out a woman's arm at around 6:33 into the video Very Happy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z65Z8UjmYY

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Post by halfwise Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:51 pm

Are you sure that's the right video or time? I skipped to 6:33 and there was no woman. Video about historical jesus, which may be interesting to watch (though I've become convinced by a Bayesian analysis that there was not even a historical Jesus).

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Post by Elthir Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:23 pm

Hmm. There should be a woman in the crowd starting at about 6:33 (she's not on camera long, but you can pause).

Blue shirt. No?

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Post by halfwise Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:34 pm

Somehow I was seeing a different 6:33, now I see it. A tattoo is quite a commitment, I wonder why that image in particular?

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Post by Elthir Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:59 am

Tolkien's own dragon!

Very Happy

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Post by halfwise Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:25 pm

That I know, and it's particularly well suited for a fore-arm; I suppose my esteem for it was somehow lessened by thinking of it as a margin doodle.  But it is indeed his most developed representation of a dragon and it does lie nicely along the arm.

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Post by Elthir Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:25 pm

I like the simple design, which, I agree, makes a nice tattoo there.

And I suppose this video is only "Tolkien related" for seconds . . .

. . . but I couldn't resist Very Happy

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Post by Forest Shepherd Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:13 am

Nice catch!

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Post by chris63 Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:23 am


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Post by chris63 Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:24 am



Bingo Baggins? So glad he changed it to Frodo.

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Post by chris63 Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:28 pm


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Post by halfwise Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:05 pm

Christopher Lee was into heavy metal? Love it.

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Post by chris63 Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:46 pm


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Post by chris63 Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:54 pm


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