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Post by Pettytyrant101 Mon May 10, 2021 9:55 pm

In their opinion, their industry has been decimated because they have to share fishing quotas with fleets from other EU countries where they have little option to do the same the other way because of where the fish they are trying to catch are.- Lance

{{ And now they have no profitable market to sell their fish in. Scotlands been hammered by the fishing thing, with businesses going to the wall. The EU banned all shellfish sales for example from the UK, the vast bulk of which come from Scotland. The French are barracading fish markets and waters stopping UK fisherman from selling stocks and the red tape has hammered profit margins.
The promise that wed get 100% of the fish and still have a market to sell it to in the EU was a lie.
I'd be curious to know if your family member feels they got what Boris promised them in the run up to the referendum.}}

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Post by Lancebloke Mon May 10, 2021 10:03 pm

halfwise wrote:
Unfortunately the slogans work Lance, and not just on the english on any population.

*cough* "Make America Great Again" 

Seriously... we wonder why there is such a disconnect between the different political sides.

"The Tories know that 3 empty word slogans worked on the English..." is a thinly veiled dig suggesting the English (all of us... ignoring the people that voted otherwise.) Are fucking stupid and are unable to split bullshit from actual substance.

All of them.
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Post by Lancebloke Mon May 10, 2021 10:05 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:In their opinion, their industry has been decimated because they have to share fishing quotas with fleets from other EU countries where they have little option to do the same the other way because of where the fish they are trying to catch are.- Lance

{{ And now they have no profitable market to sell their fish in. Scotlands been hammered by the fishing thing, with businesses going to the wall. The EU banned all shellfish sales for example from the UK, the vast bulk of which come from Scotland. The French are barracading fish markets and waters stopping UK fisherman from selling stocks and the red tape has hammered profit margins.
The promise that wed get 100% of the fish and still have a market to sell it to in the EU was a lie.
I'd be curious to know if your family member feels they got what Boris promised them in the run up to the referendum.}}


Given everything that has happened since Brexit I don't know if they expected to.

But coming from a pro-independence person I am surprised you have that view. All rainbows and chocolate rivers in Scotland after independence.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 Mon May 10, 2021 10:09 pm

All rainbows and chocolate rivers in Scotland after independence.- Lance

{{Shouldnt think so no, but what was Brexit about? Wasnt about democracy as Uk had that. Wasnt about soverienty as we not only had that we wrote or co-wrote most of the rules around it in the EU. And wasnt about economics as were worse of so far. So what was it about?
Scottish independnce is about addressing a very clear and obvious democratic deficiet. An ability to govern ourselves or make future decisions for ourselves. it is about soverienty as we can point clearly to Brexit as a clear cut example of not having any.
Economics is of course important, but its not the reason for wanting independence.}}

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Post by Lancebloke Mon May 10, 2021 10:16 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:All rainbows and chocolate rivers in Scotland after independence.- Lance

{{Shouldnt think so no, but what was Brexit about? Wasnt about democracy as Uk had that. Wasnt about soverienty as we not only had that we wrote or co-wrote most of the rules around it in the EU. And wasnt about economics as were worse of so far. So what was it about?
Scottish independnce is about addressing a very clear and obvious democratic deficiet. An ability to govern ourselves or make future decisions for ourselves. it is about soverienty as we can point clearly to Brexit as a clear cut example of not having any.
Economics is of course important, but its not the reason for wanting independence.}}

For some people it was all about those things. The things that people promised to them and sometimes gave good examples of how that could be.

The same as the pro-union people in Scotland think you rent going to get everything that is being talked about or that the cost isn't worth it.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 Mon May 10, 2021 10:27 pm

or some people it was all about those things. The things that people promised to them and sometimes gave good examples of how that could be.- Lance

{{Except they were never true. We had democracy, we had soverienty we had good trade deals. And since we left we have no change in our democracy, same soverienty we had as before and poorer trade deals than we already had via the EU. They might have believed them, but it was untrue.

When it comes to the downsides of independence, and there will be, border and trade issues with England, cutting the deficeit and the like- these are well known about and discussed. The White Paper the SNP is setting out will be split in two sections- pros and cons. The tories set out only what they claimed were pros- they never even told the people about the cons.
And we have a genuine clear as day issue with being run from Westminister and its ability to over rule what Scotland votes for at a national level through our own Parliament. There is a big, bad issue there that has to be addressed one way or another- if that turns out to be indie, or some form of devo max or some sort of federal solution at this point who knows- but something has to give. Its an untenable position as is.}}

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Post by Lancebloke Mon May 10, 2021 10:36 pm

No.... your opinion on those things is no fact.

People thought that having to comply with EU rules and regulations, many of which were influenced by other countries, was not soverienty. 

People felt that having representatives that were appointed and not elected was no democracy. 

And the trade deals thing is stupid since we have been in a global pandemic since Brexit took place and the UK could start discussions which usually take a long time. 

And you have "clear as day" issues because that is your opinion on those issues. Again, that isn't fact. You have the same issues that every minority electorate has ever had... you just want to avoid that by creating yourself ad the majority and letting the new minority moan instead.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 Mon May 10, 2021 10:44 pm

{{ There are not many countries in the world who are governed by another country and enjoy it. There isnt a single country in history which once it left the Uk grip has ever asked to go back to it. That Scotland has a democratic deficiet is easily a provable fact- Brexit proves it alone- 62% and every single constiuency in Scotland voted against leaving. Yet we have left becuase england and wales wanted to.
In my life time since I was born in 1971 there has only been 1 Uk government that the people of Scotland voted for (Blairs Labour at every other general election Scotland has voted either overewhelmingly Labour and got Tories, or overwhelmingly SNP and got Tories).
These are facts not matters of opinion.}}

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Post by Lancebloke Mon May 10, 2021 10:57 pm

You aren't governed by another country. You are part of a democratic union. I am not really sure why anyone should give a shit about a slightly majority in an overall minority really. 

Is it really democracy at work allowing Scotland a vote or is it pandering to an annoying family member? 

The most annoying thing is you will keep fucking asking until it happens so it will happen. Then if sentiment changes and a majority think it was a mistake there won't be another one trying to come back in again.

So long as the majority are happy and the minority are silent.... well, the right majority.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 Mon May 10, 2021 11:07 pm

{{ We are a part of a union of nations. Not states, not counties, not regions. Nations. Its an agreement between nations. The idea if one nation wants to leave the union they arent allowed by the biggest member, or that the biggest member will actively use laws they write to try to trap the other nation in that union is not democracy. The Union can only exist as a matter of consent, not by force. So long as Westminister tries to enforce it there will only increase the desire of people to leave it, as it only highlights the very problem that led to this point to start with- the lack of a democratic voice.
50 years of my life, half a century (bar a few months) and my country has only ever once been governed by the party we voted for - I just dont see how you can justify that as democratic. }}

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Mon May 10, 2021 11:22 pm

{{ To put this another way what if when the Uk had the Brexit referndum the EU had just said 'we dont accept you have a right to it, once your in the EU you arent allowed to leave ever, and if you keep voting for parties that say they will leave we will just refuse to accept them every time. We will block your referendum in court, and if you hold one anyway we will declare it illegal and ignore the result. We can kick you out, but you arent allowed to choose to leave.'
Would England have borne that? Would they think it was fair and democratic? Would Farage or Boris just have thrown up their hands and said 'yup, theres more of you, you can outvote us that's fair enough we just have to remain in the EU then.'
I very much doubt it.}}

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Post by Mrs Figg Mon May 10, 2021 11:44 pm

Lancebloke wrote:
halfwise wrote:
Unfortunately the slogans work Lance, and not just on the english on any population.

*cough* "Make America Great Again" 

Seriously... we wonder why there is such a disconnect between the different political sides.

"The Tories know that 3 empty word slogans worked on the English..." is a thinly veiled dig suggesting the English (all of us... ignoring the people that voted otherwise.) Are fucking stupid and are unable to split bullshit from actual substance.

All of them.

oh no Lance, its not a thinly veiled dig, I think 17 million of the English are as thick as mince. They did zero research, not even the minimum, had zero idea about high finance and complicated trade deals, and what was worse they believed a known liar. They voted for Johnson knowing he was a congenital liar and now they get upset because its all turned out to be a lie. That is the epitome of self satisfied dumbassery. Just my opinion but there is nothing veiled about it. People did believe moronic 3 word slogans and ask them who Keir Starmer is and they probably think she is that actress from Pirates of the Caribbean. Thick. As. Mince.
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Post by Mrs Figg Mon May 10, 2021 11:47 pm

Lancebloke wrote:No.... your opinion on those things is no fact.

People thought that having to comply with EU rules and regulations, many of which were influenced by other countries, was not soverienty. 

People felt that having representatives that were appointed and not elected was no democracy. 

And the trade deals thing is stupid since we have been in a global pandemic since Brexit took place and the UK could start discussions which usually take a long time. 

And you have "clear as day" issues because that is your opinion on those issues. Again, that isn't fact. You have the same issues that every minority electorate has ever had... you just want to avoid that by creating yourself ad the majority and letting the new minority moan instead.

You do know that MEPs are elected?
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Post by halfwise Tue May 11, 2021 12:38 am

Just like over here I have to assume there's a mix of voter types who might support Brexit. Some, perhaps even the majority, would indeed vote out of a knee-jerk jingoism. They likely would take Boris and co. as heros. Others would feel that one-size fits all rule must inevitably be inefficient and strangle local trade. They may not like Boris and co., but as nobody else is willing to do what they feel is necessary, would go ahead and support them as a means to an end.

The first group probably deserve to be demeaned, the second much less so. I see that everyone is partly right here.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Tue May 11, 2021 1:20 am

{{ Very diplomatic Halfy.

But I think when you have a nation like Scotland which voted again overwhelmingly to elect parties who support independence, and instead of hearing that democratic voice, addressing it, or even taking it seriously, the attitude that to even listen is just 'pandering to an annoying family member' rather highlights the issue well and how England views us. If thats the attitude England has to Scottish democracy, the Scottish people and our culture being expressed why would we want to stay? }}

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Post by halfwise Tue May 11, 2021 2:07 am

I wasn't addressing Scotland's wishes for independence, only the argument about whether Brexiteers are perforce unthinking numbskulls.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Tue May 11, 2021 2:32 am

{{ When it comes to Brexit I think a lot of groups heard what they wanted to and then stopped thinking for themselves at that point.
Fisherman are the best exmaple- one of the most high profile pro-Brexit groups.
Yet to a layman like me it was blatantly obvious that if we told the EU we were cutting off overnight all acces to our waters and that all fish would be ours theyd just repsond with 'fine, good luck selling them somewhere else then.'
Which is exactly whats happened.

If you have fresh fish or shellfish then you catch it in the morning and it needs to be on restraunt tables in your market by evening, or at most the next day, especially shellfish- after that its worth half, a day longer nothing at all, its going in the bin.
That the response to the Uk position on fishing would be just this was blatantly obvious.

Yet it was only once Brexit was done and dusted and the markets in the EU closed up, or the delays caused by all the added beurocracy made the haul worthless by the time it arrived that fisherman suddenly went, hold on this isnt what we were promised.
But what they were promised was never viable in the first place, blatantly so.
No good having 100% of the fish if you cant sell any- catching fish doesnt make you money, selling them does.
And fisherman who have been selling to the EU all this time should have been those most aware of this. And yet they backed Brexit to the hilt and destroyed their own livlihoods in the process.
And the only explanation I have is that they bought Boris jingoism, even though it was contary to all good sense, all their knowledge of their own industry and reality.



And this impacts Scottish independence too, as we have over 60% of the UK fishing waters and we didnt want to leave the EU and were forced out and now we dont have a market for one of our export industries and business and livlihoods are going to the wall. }}

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Post by Lancebloke Tue May 11, 2021 8:02 am

OK... I am done with this. And people wonder why we are in such a shitty mess in so many places....
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Post by Mrs Figg Tue May 11, 2021 1:18 pm

Lance, I apologise to you personally, you may think that I am insulting people but you have to understand that I take this very personally, Brexit makes me very angry, it effects me directly, it makes my life harder, it makes my life unnecessarily complicated and worrying, for something that was patent rubbish from the get go.
You try being an immigrant in Europe, I don't call myself an ex-pat because that's what the dumbasses in Benidorm call themselves after they have just voted to get themselves thrown out of the country for not having the correct paperwork. So I am an immigrant, wondering if I am still allowed health treatment, will I get my UK pension, all manner of things. Luckily I am a legal resident and married to an Italian, but still, small things like roaming charges and ordering stuff online, longer queues at airports, is now a major pain in the arse, for nothing.
I object to the people who swallowed the lies, did zero research about the EU, had no clue what they were voting for but followed Farage and UKIP without question, they disliked European immigrants, wanted a fucking useless sovereignty which we had already, and shot themselves and their descendants in the foot. It is madness and I will not apologise for calling them thick, they were thick. Listen to the idiot vox-pops on the telly when they interviewed the 'people' I sometimes wanted to throw the telly through the window they were so ignorant, jingoistic, and stubborn with it. It was all "we won get over it". Obviously not all were thick, some had the best intentions, were hoodwinked, thought sincerely it was for the best, but the tiniest bit of research would have told them different, the benefits of being a member were vast and simple to understand. I will never ever understand it or accept it. Just thinking about all the disrupted lives and businesses, the billions of pounds lost, it beggars belief.
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Post by Bluebottle Wed May 12, 2021 8:48 pm

https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-ship-song/

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Post by Bluebottle Wed May 12, 2021 8:58 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
I agree entirely with her that it has to be legal, it has to approved and it has to be internationally recognised, otherwise we are just putting ourselves in the Catalonian position.

That is the thing though, you wouldn't. What happened in Catalonia is what happens when you go into a clash of sovereignty with no intention to uphold your own. The Catalans always aimed to use the referendum to achieve negotiations. When the Spanish police violence opened the door to independence they panicked, like deers in the headlight, and surrendered, accepting Spanish sovereignty. The Spanish called their bluff, since the Catalans were never prepared to act unilaterally in a way Spain feared they saw no reason to compromise. What Catalonia tells you is that you go to a clash of sovereignty in earnest, not to gain a negotiation position for milder reforms.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Wed May 12, 2021 9:07 pm

{{ If its not legal, not recognised whats the point? Plus the results of the election show the country is still pretty split down themiddle, damn near 50/50- holding a referendum in which half the population boycott voting would be utterly meaningless. Not to mention Westminster would simply declare it an illegal vote and therefore not have any reason to accept the result.
Far better to my mind to go Sturgeon's route of legislate for it, put it through the Parliament and wait for Boris to challenge it in the courts. Thats an SNP win/win- either the court find it would be legal and Westminster has no power to decide if there is one, or the court side with Westminister blocking any democratic means of deciding ourselves, galvinising further support for doing so and resentment to Westminster for refusing it, piling more presure on and increasing the pro-indie majority to a more realistic level to actually gain independence (in my view a minumum of 60% consitently polling for indie. Anythingless its too narrow a margin, and if Scotland votes to remain again thats it for the foreseeabe future.)}}

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Thu May 13, 2021 9:43 pm

{{ So proud of my fellow Scots today.
The Home Office came to Glasgow today to take away two Indian men and kick them out the country. Immigration policy isnot devoloved so scottish Parliament has no say on this and Boris's govt, under hard line Pritti Patels' Home Office are coming after folk.

'Early on Thursday people surrounded the Home Office vehicle believed to contain two Indian immigrants who had been removed from a flat.
Hundreds gathered in the area, with one man crawling under the van to prevent it from moving.
The Home Office said the men had been detained over "suspected immigration offences".
Some of the protesters were heard shouting "let our neighbours go".

Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, who is also the MSP for the area, said she disagreed fundamentally with Home Office immigration policy.
She said: "This action was unacceptable. To act in this way, in the heart of a Muslim community as they celebrated Eid, and in an area experiencing a Covid outbreak was a health and safety risk."
She said she would be "demanding assurances" from the UK government that they would not create such a dangerous situation again.
She added: "No assurances were given - and frankly no empathy shown - when I managed to speak to a junior minister earlier."

Humza Yousaf, the Scottish government's justice secretary, said: "the action they [the Home Office] have today is at best completely reckless, and at worst intended to provoke, on a day the UK government would have known the Scottish government and MSPs would be distracted by parliamentary process."
He added that the situation "should never have occurred", and that "the UK government's hostile environment is not welcome here."

In a statement, the Home Office said: "The UK Government is tackling illegal immigration and the harm it causes, often to the most vulnerable people by removing those with no right to be in the UK.
"The operation in Glasgow was conducted in relation to suspected immigration offences and the two Indian nationals complied with officers at all times.
"The UK Government continues to tackle illegal migration in all its forms and our New Plan for Immigration will speed up the removal of those who have entered the UK illegally."
The Sikhs in Scotland group said in a statement that it was "deeply concerned", and urged the Home Office to "abandon forced removals and to adopt an immigration policy based on human rights, compassion and dignity".
Mohammad Asif, of the Afghan Human Rights Foundation, said hundreds of people were protesting.
The 54-year-old added: "We're here against the hostile environment created by the Tories and the British state."

The two men were eventually released.


Well done to all those in the neighbourhood who refused to sit by and watch it happen and let the Uk government know we dont do this to people in Scotland. Whatever the Home Office says.}}

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Post by halfwise Thu May 13, 2021 9:47 pm

there must have been some warning to get such a large crowd so quickly. I doubt they were flashing lights and blowing the siren.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Thu May 13, 2021 9:53 pm

{{ No, noone knew. The Home Office dont announce such raids.
The van turned up and some of the Indian guys neighbours came out to try to stop them being taken, then one of them went under the van so they couldnt move it. Then more of the neighbourhood started coming out to stop it, then more and more from neighbouring streets. }}

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