Game of Thrones [2]

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Post by Bluebottle Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:39 pm

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They're all.. so young. Shocked

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Post by Eldorion Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:41 pm

Listening to the Inside the Episode features brought me closer to getting onboard with the notion of "death of the author" than I ever have been before. It was like watching two dudes keep shooting themselves in the foot over and over.
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Post by Bluebottle Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:54 pm

Yeah, it's a bit like "How to contradict yourself and alienate people". Sofa

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Post by Bluebottle Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:29 pm

Mm, yes..

Here’s some fun questions! Let’s see if they can be answered with anything other than “creatively, it makes sense because they wanted it to happen”:

How was Jon Show actually a “traitor”?
Why didn’t the very real and heavily witnessed attack at Hardhome influence any of the Black Brothers into thinking that warm bodies on their side of the Wall might be a rather good thing?
Why would a feudal lord burn his only heir? or alternatively, Why burn your only heir when there were still horses left and you’re like 2 days away from your destination?
How did 20 men take out all provisions for an army of 5,000?
How did no one know about the Boltons’ troops (including the Boltons)
Does Dany have Rhaegal and Viseron trained or not?
Does Dany want to hold trials or not?
Why did Batfinger ask Carol for permission to invade Winterfell and then set up her arrest?
How was Sansa supposed to be getting revenge by “making Ramsay hers”?
Why did the High Sparrow want to frame Margaery?
Why didn’t Larry just ask Doran for Myrcella?
Why did Tyene cure Bronn?
Why did the Sand Fakes kill the captain?
Weren’t there multiple lion necklaces?
What the hell was that last scene in the House of Dark and Vague and why can Arya suddenly apply faces?
Why didn’t Faullaria kiss Larry to death…ya know…which would have actually done something rather than murdering a random innocent girl?
Why did Not!Strong Belwas strike chains off of Tyrion?
Why did Varys try and get Dany killed in S1 but is her biggest fan now
How were people on The Wall being appraised of the situation in Meereen?
Why was no one a little more disturbed by the fact that Qyburn appointed someone with blue skin to the Kingsguard?
Why did Carol have any power at all as “Queen Mother”? (she’s not “regent,” which means Tommen is old enough to be ruling).
http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/122335767207/if-you-hadnt-read-the-books-would-the-perceived

Anyone got any answers? Nah, me neither.

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“We're doomed,” he says, casually. “There's no question about that. But it's OK to be doomed because then you can just enjoy your life."
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Post by bungobaggins Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:59 pm

Seasons 1 through 3 were really good television, all things considered.

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Post by Mrs Figg Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:30 pm

seasons 2-5 were pretty great all things considered. Wink
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Post by Lancebloke Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:46 pm

5 wasn't...
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Post by Bluebottle Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:55 pm

4 had major issues as well, although it did have some stunning moments too. And Pedro Pascal was just amazing. Lifted the performance of every actor he interacted with. And even in the three first you could see the building blocks to the catastrophe season 5 was. I'm with Bungo though, for the first three seasons it was probably one of the best fantasy television series that's been produced for all it's failings.

I do find it telling that David Benioff has said he was halfway through Storm of Swords when they pitched the show to George and HBO and got it comissioned. And that they said their ultimate goal with the series was "..to get to rw.", which by the way is halway through Storm of Swords. They had no plan beyond that, and really have no clue at adapting the series as a whole, and it shows.

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“We're doomed,” he says, casually. “There's no question about that. But it's OK to be doomed because then you can just enjoy your life."
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Post by Bluebottle Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:03 pm

*jumps out at you from behind a trashcan*

Just a friendly reminder that Sansa’s “empowering” moment this season was telling the person who warned her about her abuser that she wanted to die.
http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/122343793747/jumps-out-at-you-from-behind-a-trashcan-just-a

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“We're doomed,” he says, casually. “There's no question about that. But it's OK to be doomed because then you can just enjoy your life."
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Post by Mrs Figg Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:10 pm

Lancebloke wrote:5 wasn't...

yes it was.
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Post by Mrs Figg Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:11 pm

Bluebottle wrote:4 had major issues as well, although it did have some stunning moments too. And Pedro Pascal was just amazing. Lifted the performance of every actor he interacted with. And even in the three first you could see the building blocks to the catastrophe season 5 was. I'm with Bungo though, for the first three seasons it was probably one of the best fantasy television series that's been produced for all it's failings.

I do find it telling that David Benioff has said he was halfway through Storm of Swords when they pitched the show to George and HBO and got it comissioned. And that they said their ultimate goal with the series was "..to get to rw.", which by the way is halway through Storm of Swords. They had no plan beyond that, and really have no clue at adapting the series as a whole, and it shows.

I totally disagree with that analysis.
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Post by Bluebottle Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:25 pm

Well, you don't spend half your time retconning if you knew where you were going in the first place. Shrugging

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Post by Bluebottle Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:26 pm

The one good thing to come out of season 5? Shocked

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http://www.livingbettertogether.com/2014/04/sansas-lemon-cakes.html

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Post by Eldorion Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:47 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:seasons 2-5 were pretty great all things considered. Wink

The debate over seasons four and five aside (I think I've made my feelings on that clear), I'm actually curious what you didn't like about season 1. Smile I don't think it was the best season but on rewatching it last year I thought it was pretty great.
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Post by Mrs Figg Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:51 pm

it was so slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow.
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Post by Mrs Figg Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:55 pm

ok heres season 1. Mad its so sloooooooooooooooooooooooooowah

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Post by Eldorion Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:56 pm

Bluebottle wrote:Mm, yes..

Here’s some fun questions! Let’s see if they can be answered with anything other than “creatively, it makes sense because they wanted it to happen”:

How was Jon Show actually a “traitor”?
Why didn’t the very real and heavily witnessed attack at Hardhome influence any of the Black Brothers into thinking that warm bodies on their side of the Wall might be a rather good thing?
Why would a feudal lord burn his only heir? or alternatively, Why burn your only heir when there were still horses left and you’re like 2 days away from your destination?
How did 20 men take out all provisions for an army of 5,000?
How did no one know about the Boltons’ troops (including the Boltons)
Does Dany have Rhaegal and Viseron trained or not?
Does Dany want to hold trials or not?
Why did Batfinger ask Carol for permission to invade Winterfell and then set up her arrest?
How was Sansa supposed to be getting revenge by “making Ramsay hers”?
Why did the High Sparrow want to frame Margaery?
Why didn’t Larry just ask Doran for Myrcella?
Why did Tyene cure Bronn?
Why did the Sand Fakes kill the captain?
Weren’t there multiple lion necklaces?
What the hell was that last scene in the House of Dark and Vague and why can Arya suddenly apply faces?
Why didn’t Faullaria kiss Larry to death…ya know…which would have actually done something rather than murdering a random innocent girl?
Why did Not!Strong Belwas strike chains off of Tyrion?
Why did Varys try and get Dany killed in S1 but is her biggest fan now
How were people on The Wall being appraised of the situation in Meereen?
Why was no one a little more disturbed by the fact that Qyburn appointed someone with blue skin to the Kingsguard?
Why did Carol have any power at all as “Queen Mother”? (she’s not “regent,” which means Tommen is old enough to be ruling).
http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/122335767207/if-you-hadnt-read-the-books-would-the-perceived

Anyone got any answers? Nah, me neither.

Some of these are really reaching. It's pretty obvious that most of the show!Night's Watch considers Jon a traitor because he abandoned the long-time mission of keeping the wildlings out. And I don't think that any of the guys who were at Hardhome participated in Jon's shanking so y'know, maybe it did influence them? But it's hardly unprecedented in either fiction or reality for people to refuse to cooperate with those they hate even if it means putting their life at risk. And the show goes out of its way to give an explanation for Varys, with Tyrion arguing that Varys made sure the plots would fail while still being convincing to Robert. Yes, this is almost certainly a retcon, and it does strain credulity, but to not even acknowledge the show's own explanation for this is disingenuous at best.

There's enough stupid shit in S5 without actively trying to make it sound dumber than it was.
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Post by Eldorion Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:57 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:it was so slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow.

Well it has been a year since I've seen it but I remember quite a bit of shit going down. And I don't think those exciting moments would have been meaningful without doing the legwork of establishing characters and settings beforehand.  Pacing is partially a matter of perception though of course.
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Post by Mrs Figg Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:02 pm

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Post by Bluebottle Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:24 pm

Eldorion wrote:Some of these are really reaching.  It's pretty obvious that most of the show!Night's Watch considers Jon a traitor because he abandoned the long-time mission of keeping the wildlings out.  And I don't think that any of the guys who were at Hardhome participated in Jon's shanking so y'know, maybe it did influence them?  But it's hardly unprecedented in either fiction or reality for people to refuse to cooperate with those they hate even if it means putting their life at risk.

Yes, but then they introduced the battle at Hardhome to clearly show us the real treat in the north. Jon and other members of the Watch witnessed the Nights King personally raising dead Wildlings and adding them to the army of the dead. I will never believe that the majority of the NW in view of those news would have kept up their opposition to letting the Wildlings south of the Wall. A small minority might, but this was presented as supported b the whole power structure of the Watch. What a shame Jon only took time to tell Sam of what happened at Hardhome, or things might have been different. Rolling Eyes  

It should be the first thing he told his brothers of when he came south, it should have been the only objective of the Watch to work against the Others from then on.

Some might have thought the Watches purpose was to defend the Seven kingdoms from the Wildlings, but the realization of the wrongness of that should have started to dawn on them at this point. Jon is not a traitor to the Watch in the show, he's simply a victim of some brothers xenophobia.

Eldorion wrote:And the show goes out of its way to give an explanation for Varys, with Tyrion arguing that Varys made sure the plots would fail while still being convincing to Robert.  Yes, this is almost certainly a retcon, and it does strain credulity, but to not even acknowledge the show's own explanation for this is disingenuous at best.

Risky though. He was willing to bet the last living Targaryan on a message reaching Jorah at exactly the right time all the way across the world? He and Illyrio sent the man they were backing for the throne off to die. Or are we meant to think that was intentional and they somehow knew that his young sister who could hardly speak in public would make this great ruler? it all sounds like in show retconning to me.

Either they are grossly incompetent, or Varys is simply lying. Either way it's a mismatched web that holds up to little or no scrutiny.  

Eldorion wrote:There's enough stupid shit in S5 without actively trying to make it sound dumber than it was.

Well, that' certainly true. Wink

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Post by Eldorion Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:38 pm

Bluebottle wrote:Some might have thought the Watches purpose was to defend the Seven kingdoms from the Wildlings, but the realization of the wrongness of that should have started to dawn on them at this point. Jon is not a traitor to the Watch in the show, he's simply a victim of some brothers xenophobia.

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I don't even know what you're arguing against here. The show clearly wants us to take Jon's side; it's not D&D calling Jon a traitor. And yes, in the show, the main motivation of the Night's Watch to go against Jon is xenophobia. That's what they were going for! You might not like it, but like ... it's the sort of thing you expect to come up with someone starts trying to make peace between two tribes that have been warring for generations. It's not at all unbelievable. Also keep in mind that none of the assassins had been at Hardhome and none of them really put much stock in what Jon said in general, so they were unlikely to take his testimony about the threat from the Walkers seriously. And like, complacency brought on by the Wall's successful track record is a major point in both the show and the books.

Risky though. He was willing to bet the last living Targaryan on a message reaching Jorah at exactly the right time all the way across the world? He and Illyrio sent the man they were backing for the throne off to die. Or are we meant to think that was intentional and they somehow knew that his young sister who could hardly speak in public would make this great ruler? it all sounds like in show retconning to me.

Either they are grossly incompetent, or Varys is simply lying. Either way it's a mismatched web that holds up to little or no scrutiny.

As I said in my previous post, I also think it was a retcon. And I never said it was a good explanation, but it's adequate. Nothing more. It's certainly not a mark in the show's favor, but if I refused to watch anything with retcons, there would be very little long-running media available for me. GOT did a better job here than, say, the Star Wars franchise did covering up the fact that Darth Vader wasn't intended to be Anakin Skywalker until they started writing TESB (to pick just one example).
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Post by Bluebottle Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:44 pm

I think I'd simply say, it still doesn't make sense. I'm not sure I would follow you on the adequate route. Saying something doesn't change what you've said before in your writing, and I'm not sure I buy the explanations.

More importantly though it represent a general trend of poor storytelling whether that list is perfect or not. In the internal narrative of the story, their writing this season to a large degree does not make sense. Shrugging

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Post by Mrs Figg Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:10 pm

makes sense to me. But then I am a Contrary Mary. Very Happy

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:27 pm

silent

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Post by Mrs Figg Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:11 am

Mad
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